One Breath : Edward Howard

 Summary

In this episode, Ed Howard shares his journey from finance to spiritual practice, exploring how meditation, breathwork, and ancient traditions can enhance leadership and well-being. Discover practical techniques and insights to integrate mindfulness into everyday life.

Key  Topics

• Ed Howard's journey from finance to spirituality
• The role of meditation and breathwork in stress management
• Neuroscience behind mindfulness and flow states
• Practical techniques for integrating mindfulness into daily life
• The connection between ancient traditions and modern psychology

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https://calendly.com/cbrim/30min

Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.261)
Welcome to another episode of the Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Ed Howard of Kokoro Business Success. Ed, welcome to the show.

Ed (00:11.692)
Thanks very much, Christian. Thanks for having me. Do you prefer Christian or Chris?

Christian Brim (00:16.375)
Yes. No, Chris actually was my client's name. We we were talking about that beforehand, the who who inspired the program. And you're not the first person to make that mistake. I'll I'll answer as they say here in in Oklahoma, I'll answer to anything as long as you're calling me for dinner. So yes. So we we were we were talking in the green room that you're you're in Singapore via Manchester and Liverpool,

Ed (00:18.85)
Was your, okay.

Ed (00:23.864)
Okay.

Ed (00:33.399)
Right. Okay. All right.

Christian Brim (00:44.259)
Give us the origin story. How did how did you end up in Singapore?

Ed (00:48.462)
The quick version is we moved here 10 years ago. I was working in London at the time. I'd spent five years in Japan straight after university and fallen in love with Japan and Japanese culture. And I'd always been angling for a move back to Asia, just because I enjoyed it so much.

I honestly don't know the origin of where that comes from. My parents, you know, were from Warrington and had lived there all their lives. My dad's family had lived there for about 500 years, I think. So I'm not quite sure where the traveller in me has come from. But yeah, you know, I still love Asia. I still love travelling. I'm going back to Japan tomorrow, actually, for the first time.

since COVID. so yeah, I think it's just having a curious mind and, and, you know, when, when you enjoy something, you just keep, keep doing it, right.

Christian Brim (02:02.092)
Yes, Japan is a hundred percent on my bucket list. I I can't decide if I want to go to South America or Japan next, but Japan is definitely on on the on the top two or three. so work brought you to Singapore is is the short answer, yeah.

Ed (02:20.691)
Yeah, yeah, so I taught English in Japan and then I promised my dad I'd come back and study law and get a proper job. Yeah, such is the sins of the father and all that. But no, he hadn't done that and kind of regretted it. And I think he'd imbued in me that it was a good career to follow. But having studied it, I ended up

Christian Brim (02:30.216)
Ugh Ugh.

Christian Brim (02:36.135)
was he a was he a barrister?

Christian Brim (02:43.212)
I see.

Ed (02:50.349)
not going that route and by complete chance ended up working in banking for Lehman Brothers first in London, you know, before, I have to say I wasn't responsible, but before all that happened. then, yeah, I think I'd been there about fifth, I'd been in various banks in London. I worked for Merrill and then Bank of America.

for a short time. then, you know, somebody called me and asked me, you know, would you be interested in Singapore? And I'd never, I'd never been here. I was married by that point, but I'd never been. I've been to most other countries in Asia and we just took a punt on it really. And we said, we'll do two or three years and then we'll go back. And then here we are 10 years later. So just goes to show all that, all that gold setting.

You know, you've got to take it with a pinch of salt.

Christian Brim (03:53.274)
Yes. I I I think there is something in the proverbs of about man making plans and God laughing. something to that effect. okay, so banking. not involved in the two thousand eight meltdown, to to clarify. what is Kokoro?

Ed (04:00.152)
Yeah.

Ed (04:15.0)
So, while I was in Japan, I moved to the countryside after a couple of years in Tokyo and the first person I was introduced to was a Zen abbot of a large temple. you know, obviously that's not something you get much in the northwest of England. And so I was naturally curious, but he and I just seemed to hit it off, even though I didn't speak a lot of Japanese at that point.

he still doesn't speak any English. But his daughters left home for university and I think he was looking for a drinking buddy as much as anything else. So, you know, he and I became great friends and that kind of sparked my interest. I think I'd read Zen and the Automotorcycle Maintenance when I first moved to Tokyo and maybe a couple of other bits and pieces.

It all kind of came together the summer before I left Japan where I went and did a four-day retreat at a monastery called Eihage which is not far from Kyoto and it's the oldest or one of the oldest monasteries in Japan. I think it's over a thousand years old and they gave me the full

going over the full works for four days. So up at 3.30, you know, hours and hours of seated meditation a day. Pretty much every aspect of what you do has been ritualized so that, you know, your mind kind of maintains this calm focus for the whole time that you're there. Plus your calories are about half what you usually eat. So...

and most of those temples are pretty dark. So all kinds of sensory deprivation. And it just had a really profound effect on me because when I stepped out into the sun after four days, everything felt the same, but everything was different as well. Everything was clearer. I was calmer. I felt this kind of immense sense of gratitude.

Ed (06:41.08)
partly for not having to sit cross-legged anymore because I'm not really built for it. it just kind of, I knew that it had changed my life, but I wasn't quite sure how. And so I went back to the UK, as I said, and studied and then started my career, but I kept practising meditation with various other groups.

But I kept the kind of two things separate from one another, my sort of career in finance and this practice. And I was kind of testing whether or not it worked, I think, because I remained skeptical even though I was kind of compelled to do it. And it got to the point in, I guess, 20...

when my dad passed away and suddenly I didn't feel like I had to keep kind of working in the industry that I've been working in for almost 20 years. And I started to think about, what was I going to do instead? And that was the point where I thought I need to bring these two things together. I need to kind of translate essentially what is an Asian.

practice or an Asian tradition, but very much a kind of monastic tradition or a spiritual tradition into a language that people, everyday people, know, whatever their religion, whatever job they're doing, can kind of lean into. that, you know, that was kind of the spark of it really. so I wrote

a book on it which came out last month called One Breath Leadership and basically I boiled everything down to the lowest unit of practice which for me is just one breath in and out and then inserted it into a person's regular

Ed (09:05.878)
regular life, you whether they're working in a bank or a consultancy or you know, they might be working in a lawyer's office or you know, or even in you know, in the medical profession or whatever. And I wanted to be able to back this up with the science. So I went deep into kind of the neuroscience and the psychology, all of which really is

has developed and been published since I had that experience, you know, in the summer of 2000 and is still continuing to evolve. And so what I wanted to do was package essentially 30 years of stumbling about making mistakes into something that was, you know, 100 pages long that people could, you know, read in two or three hours on a commute and hopefully

take something away from. And at the same time as that, you know, I go in and speak to leadership teams and development programs and other sort of big companies, teach them the method, teach them why it works, and then, you know, invite them to test it out for themselves. You know, I don't want them to take my word for it, you know, go out and try it and...

and see what it does for you. And so that's really the basics of it. Obviously, there's more depth to it than that, but that's the thing is to get it down to a unit and also to kind of demystify meditation. And people think that it's gotta be for 20 minutes and it's gotta be in a quiet room and maybe they need to burn incense and so on.

You don't need any of that. You know, what's important is that you're in the moment and experiencing reality as it truly is, rather than through this haze of conditioning or regret or dreams for the future. And all of those things, you know, have their place. But when you're really in the moment, you become a better listener and a better decision maker.

Ed (11:31.914)
a calmer, less reactive person. yeah, that's kind of it in a five minute explanation.

Christian Brim (11:41.622)
I I love that. I I think, yes, I I think i i I I I recently had and I've I I've had on the show before hypnotherapists and and talking about the different states of your of your brain. and you know talking about we we talk a lot about on this program the

Ed (11:52.144)
yeah.

Christian Brim (12:07.209)
programming that runs at a subconscious level, that that is highly reactive. and and like moving from that space to a more productive, intentional, calm space. Because not you know, when you're a leader and you're making decisions, it's not always

Calm waters, right? Like there there are crises, there are emotions of yours and others, and like being able to manage that th in in a productive way, I think is is is a critical skill to develop, whether it's it's meditation or hypnosis or you know, really understanding what programming you're running from.

li r running on you know like the the beliefs and and the behaviors that are just automatic. probably a combination of all three. I I can speak from my own experience that meditation has always been a struggle for me with with the idea of emptying your mind. Yeah I have found it much easier

in in in my faith tradition from a from a a christian standpoint meditating on something right like a a a an external thought like one of the things that i have found really powerful is is just meditating on an attribute of god so taking it and just just

Ed (13:44.396)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (14:04.342)
you know, really holding that in my mind, contemplating it.

Not necessarily remembering experiences where that attribute showed up for me, but just dwelling on it, I guess would be the the the best phrase. But having said that experience, what what would be your response?

Ed (14:29.88)
Yeah, think that's great. You know, all the major traditions have some form of meditative practice and how I define that is, and I define it in the book is I use these things I call the three keys, which are mind, breath.

and awareness. Now, breath, you know, I grew up in a kind of Christian tradition as well. And I don't think the breath was particularly emphasized during prayer or at all. However, and this was, I thought this was really interesting that as part of the research, there's a book called Breath by

James Nester, which was, been a bestseller in the US and globally. again, it's a kind of quick read and it's really, really well written and great. And he talks about the Lord's Prayer and other kind of prayers in other traditions, essentially having what I use,

in terms of the breath as a six in and six out rhythm. So the whole of the Lord's Prayer basically operates on that same breathing pattern, which I thought was fascinating because I'd never kind of seen it in the Christian tradition before and I haven't really explored it any further but I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, some of the Psalms are written in that meter as well.

Christian Brim (16:00.789)
Mm.

Ed (16:25.774)
Because when you get that kind of rhythmic or standardised breathing pattern along with what you're focusing on, you know, whether it's the mind of God or its compassion or its kindness or... And you're able to hold your attention on it.

Christian Brim (16:46.463)
No

Ed (16:53.974)
which takes time to build like a muscle. But when you have those three things, essentially you're meditating, whatever tradition you've come from.

Christian Brim (17:07.777)
Yeah, I I was I was first introduced to breath work in the context of exercise, actually. and it it was the intentionality of breathing in through the nose, the the box breath, and I think this I think this came from some special forces training, but like breathing in through your nose, holding it, exhaling it, and then

not breathing so like that pattern resets your nervous system and resets your your your heart so that you c you know like if you're in a stressful situation or if you're like exerting yourself it allows you to you know reset and and and i it I I'd be curious the the

Ed (17:41.912)
That's right.

Ed (17:53.464)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (18:05.549)
the brain wave functionality, like how that breath changes, that's your your your whether you're in alphabet or whatever.

Ed (18:13.92)
Yeah, yeah, it's the seals actually. I mentioned it in the book and the box breathing is I think in for four, hold for four, out for four, hold for four. So it's, you know, that's why you get the box from. You know, the one that I recommend is in for six and out for six or if you're a bit smaller, five and five or if you're short of breath, four and...

and four in through the nose and then out again through the nose. And so there's, you know, the Indian traditions and like yoga and the martial arts traditions, you know, whether they're Chinese or Japanese or Korean or whatever, they all have these different sorts of patterns that you can use depending on.

Not necessarily what you want to get out of it, knowing the state that it will put you in. And what you said about the seals was exactly right. I think it's the Taoists have got one called the breath of mental power or something, which is, I can't remember, I think it's like five.

Christian Brim (19:20.322)
Right.

Ed (19:39.695)
in for five, out for seven, hold for eight or something. I'd have to look it up. But that immediately makes you feel a lot sharper. know, it kind of wakes you up if you're tired or if you're about to concentrate, you need to concentrate on something but you're feeling fuzzy or over caffeinated. that, you know, there's lots of different methods and, you know, I've always found it really interesting.

and people can play with them.

Christian Brim (20:13.303)
So when when you in your book and and and your practice and your teaching of of breathing or meditation, is is it an emptying of the mind? Because again, I find that very challenging. Like thinking about nothing is damn near impossible for any length of time for me.

Ed (20:34.368)
Yeah, Yeah, so I think that's one of the big misconceptions of meditation is that it's about emptying your mind because the first time you try it, you'd be very lucky if you managed to empty it. And that's one of the reasons that I wanted to reduce it down to just one breath. And the reason, part of the reason that I

done that is most people when they begin meditation maybe don't have the the practice of having held their attention on something for a period of time and the reason that we do it and you know in the One Breath Method I ask people to focus on their breath so whether they imagine it as like a little

ploughed of smoke going in through the nose and then down all the way to the lower belly for six and then back out. Or some people imagine like a golden liquid or you could just, you know, kind of follow it down your body in your mind. But what that's actually doing is giving the mind that is going, I need to send that email. I'm hungry. I had that row with my wife this morning.

Christian Brim (21:59.777)
Right, right.

Ed (22:01.998)
my kids driving me mad at the minute. It gives it something to do other than think about that stuff. And that, you know, talking about the brain waves, that shifts your, the way that your brain, the way that your brain waves are happening. And over time, as you get used to doing it more and more, that deepens and you know, get theta waves come in which are

much deeper states. But for somebody that's working in an office or on a trading floor or somewhere crazy, those theta states, you're not going to be able to sit for probably more than a couple of minutes unless you're on the toilet. So to be able to break that circuit with just one breath.

It's essentially giving you that respite from, know, we call it the ordinary mind or the discerning mind, which is the one that's always got that conversation going on. And that mind's really important, you know, that helps you cross the road and it helps you drive and it helps you choose what to have for dinner. It's vital, but it's also the one when we're stressed that tends to loop.

you know, scenarios over and over over. And that's what causes, you know, further down anxiety. And then if you keep at it for long enough, depression and burnout and so on. And so it's just introducing this idea of there is a way to kind of interrupt that. You're not necessarily making it quiet because that comes over time, but to just do it.

Christian Brim (23:57.718)
Mm.

Ed (23:57.935)
for one breath at a time or for a couple of breaths when you sit down in your car and put the key in the... or those are going now it's buttons... or you're turning a door handle or you're punching the button on the elevator to go up to your office you could just take that one breath there and interrupt that loop and then that stacks over time and begins to have the same effects as long-term meditators get.

when they've wrestled with themselves for a period of time.

Christian Brim (24:33.932)
Yeah, I mean it it i it's a similar concept, although different, where you're in a a r reactive state where your amygdala has taken over, you know, the whole fight or flight and you engage your cognitive brain, it actually disrupts that. So it to me what what's what's fascinating is the human brain.

Ed (24:49.774)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (25:03.764)
is is fascinating and like how little we really understand it. and yet how these ancient practices and traditions had already figured it out, right? Like they didn't know why the brain why it worked necessarily, but it did work, right? I I'm also thinking of a book I read 10 or 15 years ago called The Rise of Superman.

Ed (25:22.893)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (25:32.982)
And it was a discussion of the the neuroscience at that time that they had done studies on extreme athletes and its effect on on their brain. Are you familiar with that book or that work?

Ed (25:47.095)
Yeah.

Ed (25:50.562)
I'm not familiar with that book, no, that sounds really good.

Christian Brim (25:53.557)
It it it was really fascinating because i I mean, it's basically a bunch of stories and then at the end they talk about the science behind it. But the story that stuck with me was this guy that was paragliding down in Mexico or South America and I don't know what they call them, but the like the big holes in the ground. And you know, jump off the top and float to the bottom. And

Ed (26:02.242)
Okay.

Ed (26:19.178)
yeah, yeah.

Christian Brim (26:22.37)
He was on his second attempt and i I guess his chute had become wet from the moisture in the air and it didn't deploy. And there was a rope along the outside that they used to climb back up.

And in a fraction of a second, he grabbed it. He he he intuited that he needed to do that. Grabbed it, and by the time he got to the bottom, he had literally burned through his flesh on his hands, right? Like to the bone, right? and he is sitting at the bottom of the you know canyon waiting for

Ed (26:56.824)
Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Brim (27:09.9)
you know, somebody to come get him. And he's sitting there and he notices this baby bird that had fallen on the ground. It was it was dying, right? And he said in that moment he felt like he and the bird were one. Like he he it was more than empathy or intuition. It was just like this this expansion of awareness, I guess.

would be the way. but I I found that story fascinating and and the the science behind it. So I I would recommend anybody that's interested in that subject to read the book 'cause it's it's it's fascinating.

Ed (27:39.949)
Yeah.

Ed (27:54.413)
What was it called again, Christian? Superman. The rise of Superman.

Christian Brim (27:56.663)
The Rise of Superman. Yeah. I don't remember the author's name. I'm s I apologize. Yes. Yes.

Ed (28:02.77)
Google, Google will be my friend on that one. Be my friend on that one. Yeah, and that state that you mentioned of feeling, you know, that there's no separation between, this case, between him and the bird, that comes up constantly in the Zen literature. But I talk about it in the book in terms of...

Christian Brim (28:18.584)
Yeah.

Ed (28:32.78)
Most people, maybe not necessarily with another being or an animal, but most of us have had that experience, whether it playing sports or even walking, you know, out in the countryside, sometimes when we're driving, but where you just feel like there's no separation between you and the action that you're doing.

Christian Brim (28:48.27)
Mm.

Ed (29:02.254)
And there's a lot of literature on, you know, from the kind of Western angle around this and they're called flow states. A lot of athletes, know, Phil Jackson, who was the manager of the Bulls when I spent those two summers in Chicago, he was really big into that from a, not only from a kind of...

Christian Brim (29:02.413)
Mm.

Christian Brim (29:13.933)
Right.

Ed (29:32.207)
kind of spiritual perspective but also from a kind of sporting excellence perspective and I think once you hear about this most people go oh yeah I kind of I kind of get what that feels like but the you know the the problem with kind of stress and mental health and and so on is we're not really

conditioned the way that we're educated and the way that our society operates to spend much time in that, you know, whether you want to call it a mind state or a brain pattern, you know, we're being bombarded by data.

Christian Brim (30:09.078)
No.

Ed (30:17.984)
Yeah. And so the antidote to that, you know, the ancient antidote to that, and they didn't have to deal with anywhere near as much kind of input is to spend more time in these other states. And as I mentioned, you know, you mentioned endurance athletes, sport or weight training or tennis or football, any of those things, those tend to be

the states where the thinking quietens and you know, you're more in flow with the moment.

Christian Brim (30:58.303)
Yeah, I mean I I I can think of my own personal experience. I I'm I'm two hundred and fifty pounds, not an endurance athlete, but when I ran a full marathon and then again when I did a half triathlon, that was two years back to back. I in that experience

I went into an altered mental state. Like it be because your body is so exhausted that it it kind of your your brain just kind of disassociates, disengages. And and it it you know, I I don't want to say it was a higher level of consciousness. It wasn't that. It was like it was an altered state. And and like you you can't get I I I haven't been able to replicate that.

Ed (31:35.288)
Yeah.

Ed (31:43.415)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (31:51.297)
But yeah.

Ed (31:53.271)
Well, it's different. It's different every time. You know, play records as a hobby in bars and stuff. I, you know, I find if I do that for a couple of hours, it's very similar to being in meditation, you know, for 45 minutes. You know, anybody that does anything creative, drawing or painting or pottery, again,

Christian Brim (32:01.911)
Mm.

Christian Brim (32:11.939)
Yeah.

Ed (32:23.566)
that's opening that other part of the brain up that relaxes, you know, the ordinary mind.

Christian Brim (32:30.614)
time where time does not pass, it doesn't exist, right? Like, you know, I I I you think about like when you're a kid and you're maybe at the pool or you're you're doing something where you're playing and time stops. Like there is no passage of time. You don't even notice it. It it you're just in the moment, if you will. And it it that is something that we need to recapture

Ed (32:33.771)
Yeah, that's right.

Ed (32:52.14)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (32:59.69)
as adults and I think frankly we need to play more. I mean because I think that's a great way to attain that state.

Ed (33:06.765)
Yeah.

Ed (33:11.246)
That's right. That's right. And you know, one of the Zen masters said that, you know, when you approach every moment in life as play, whatever it is that you're doing or whatever it is that's coming at you, you know, that's when you're a real master because...

you're there as you say in that moment where there's no time and space. The adivitas in India, you know, called that non-dual, the non-dual mind 10,000 years BC. So they, you know, they were onto it very, very early, but we've forgotten it or mainstream kind of.

society or education, you know, maybe doesn't emphasise how important that is as a human being to spend time in that state. And so if you can start with, you know, a breath or two or three breaths a day and then, you know, build it up slowly and maybe spend a little bit more time doing the things that you love that...

that make you feel that way, it's going to have an incredibly, incredibly kind of positive effect on your life. you know, from my perspective, or rather from the business I do in people's work lives as well. So that's what it's all about, really.

Christian Brim (34:48.054)
Yeah. And and and I I I I don't know that play is the best word to use because it it comes with baggage and and as as adults it's like, well, that's what kids do, and that's kind of irresponsible to just play. I would say the way I would define that is like you don't

know what's going to happen. You have no expectation or intent of something happening. and it could be playing music. It could be spending time with friends. It could be anything. It could be a walk in nature. Like it it it's not it it's not playing in the traditional sense that you're going to go on the swing set. it it or tag. God, I don't want to play tag. I'm too old and fat. right? But

Ed (35:40.43)
Yeah me too. Swings sound good though.

Christian Brim (35:43.776)
Yeah, swing swings are I can do. but but the the the the I I I think in especially with entrepreneurs and and in this generation, everything seems to be about you know work. You can't waste time. You've got to get stuff done, right? And you know when when you set aside the predictable and the known, that's when you move into play.

Ed (36:13.686)
Yeah, yeah, and you know, the youngsters and the entrepreneurs, you know, they're famous for burning out. And it's and it's because there's all that pressure on them to, you know,

Christian Brim (36:23.245)
Mm-hmm.

Ed (36:33.858)
to be straining to do something rather than just letting, than letting it happen, yeah.

Christian Brim (36:39.945)
It happened. Yes. And and and yeah, and and the reality is, you know, I I've come to this conclusion in my fifty-six years of of wisdom that most of the things that we are intent and s and so focused on and struggling with are beyond our control, right? And we we have this tendency as humans

To worry about things which we have no control over, while at the same time ignoring the things that we do have control over.

Ed (37:15.406)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And, know, when you're living in that mindset, you're missing the opportunity for, you know, good stuff and the simple things. guess if you're 56, was Bruce Lee big in?

when you were growing up in the 70s, he's got that.

Christian Brim (37:47.353)
I well, absolutely. I I actually studied Jeet Kondo with one of his his second generation teachers, yes.

Ed (37:53.569)
really?

Ed (37:57.527)
So that's what he's, you know, the finger pointing at the moon. That's what he was talking about in the movie. Which teacher was it? I know a little bit about G. Kundo.

Christian Brim (38:12.236)
So so my Sifu's Sifu was Jerry Potit. was who was with Bruce in his studio in LA. my my Sifu's name was Ledlow, is was his last name. but that was some wild shit. I'll tell you what. I'll tell you a real quick story. so I studied with Sifu for about two years until he moved. and

Ed (38:17.303)
Okay.

Ed (38:23.149)
Okay.

Ed (38:29.378)
I'll try.

Ed (38:34.675)
Hahaha

Christian Brim (38:42.686)
never heard of Jeet Kundu. I I I did not I mean I knew who Bruce Lee was, but I didn't know that that was the the martial art that he had developed. But one weekend he had a a workshop so it was an all day workshop and I was standing next to him and he he you know we were abreast of each other and he was using me as a a a demonstration

And he just reached out and tapped my chest with his back fist. And it wasn't like very hard at all. and but he was demonstrating something. And when he popped my chest, I j my whole body just resonated. I w and and I looked at him and I'm like, what the fuck was that? And he just kind of grinned at me and he goes, That's for later. And I'm like, Okay, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ed (39:17.421)
Yeah.

Ed (39:34.446)
Right, right. Yeah, yeah.

Christian Brim (39:39.128)
But that all goes back to that whole mind mind-body-spirit thing, that that like you c they're not separate. we we we think of them as separate, but they're not.

Ed (39:49.57)
That's right. That's right. Yeah, exactly. that's cool. I bet you didn't think you'd be getting on to Jeep Condo tonight.

Christian Brim (39:55.2)
No, I w I I was like Yeah, I was like, what was that? And he just kinda grinned at me. Ed, how do people find your book and learn more about Koroco?

Ed (39:59.758)
you

Ed (40:06.19)
Sure, it's on Amazon. It's called One Breath Leadership. I'm also at OneBreathLeadership.com on the interweb. Don't spend too long on there, but by all means drop me a message. And then I'm on LinkedIn for all the business stuff as well. It's Edward Howard on LinkedIn.

Christian Brim (40:28.696)
Perfect. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast, and until next time, remember you are not alone.