Chip Scholz

Summary

In this episode, Christian Brim interviews Chip Scholz about leadership, coaching, family business dynamics, and the importance of asking the right questions to foster growth and understanding.

Key Topics

• The difference between leadership and management
• The importance of asking great questions
• Family business dynamics and succession planning
• The role of coaching in leadership development
• The impact of identity and control on business decisions
• The significance of emotional intelligence and self-awareness
• The importance of asking the right questions to surface solutions
• The role of trust and surrender in leadership and life
• The influence of historical management theories on modern leadership
• The journey of personal growth through spiritual and emotional exercises

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Transcript

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Christian Brim (00:01.004)
Welcome to it's been a while. Welcome to another episode of the Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. my guest today, Chip Scholes of Scholes and Associates. Chip, welcome to the show.

Chip Scholz (00:15.601)
Hey, thank you, Christian. I'm so glad to be here.

Christian Brim (00:18.582)
Yeah, you can tell I haven't recorded an episode in a couple of weeks because I am rusty. That's that's awful. I mean, I have a face for radio, so that I can just show up for, but you still gotta go through you know, you gotta go through the steps.

Chip Scholz (00:31.059)
Well you definitely have the voice for radio.

Christian Brim (00:33.486)
I've I I've been told that. I appreciate that. I had nothing to do with it. I have absolute absolutely no training at all.

Chip Scholz (00:41.821)
Do do you do you remember what Rush Limbaugh used to say? Talent talent on loan from God.

Christian Brim (00:45.143)
Which is

That's exactly right. That anything that I have is is a is a gift. So a hundred percent. I on my my other podcast, the the Profitable Creative, I I in an homage to Rush Limbaugh, I didn't realize it when I started doing it, but then I realized that's where I got it. I will I will look at my stats and I'll find a lit one listener from some small town.

Chip Scholz (00:52.093)
That's right.

Christian Brim (01:16.158)
And I'll give them a shout out. 'cause he always opened with, you know, the radio stations.

Chip Scholz (01:22.267)
Yeah, some somebody from Peabody, Arkansas or something like that.

Christian Brim (01:24.768)
Exactly, exactly. okay, so give us your your brief C V, your your journey. we're gonna we're gonna find a thread and pull, but like what's the synopsis?

Chip Scholz (01:39.463)
the the synopsis is I've spent spent most of my life in sales and and the last 30 years I've been an executive coach, which if you can't sell, you can't you can't coach, you know. having clients is kind of an important thing. but spent time as a lobbyist, been all over the country, started in Chicago, went to Atlanta and Tampa and and LA for 13 years and the sentence was finally up in LA and we were able to move here.

been here for twenty seven years. you know, I'm I'm looking back over a a career rather than forward to a career, but you know, I still I still have some runway left in me.

Christian Brim (02:17.837)
Mm.

Christian Brim (02:22.369)
So why did you get into coaching?

Chip Scholz (02:26.258)
Pure dumb luck. So I I I got out of yeah, here here's here's the full story. In in May of ninety eight, I was working as a lobbyist in in LA for a company called BFI. And BFI doesn't exist anymore, but it was a trash company. They were probably in Oklahoma City and

Christian Brim (02:44.771)
I'm I I remember the rather crude acronym that that people said that that stood for. but I'm not gonna repeat it here. Go ahead.

Chip Scholz (02:57.04)
Well, the the one that I remember is brothers, friends and in laws, but you know

Christian Brim (03:00.992)
no, this is much more crass. but I remember the company. I remember the company.

Chip Scholz (03:05.078)
Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You know, for for most of us, we worked so hard it was better for get intercourse. But

Yeah, so so I was working for BFI. they laid me and twelve hundred people off at the at about the same time. we were all the people that knew where the bodies were buried, but we didn't pick up the trash. So they were getting ready to sell and cleaning up the balance sheet and and we were the distractions on the balance sheet. So my wife and I decided that we didn't want to be in LA anymore.

And you know, I I looking back on it, I'm I'm kinda glad we we weren't. but we packed up five cats, two dogs, three kids or or you know, three humans, put in a nineteen foot travel trailer, trans traveled all the way across to North Carolina. And yesterday I couldn't spell consultant and today I are one. And so you know, I I I opened a business.

Christian Brim (04:04.566)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (04:10.62)
Didn't know what I was doing, didn't know how I was selling to it, didn't know how I was selling it, didn't know anything. And along the way I found about this thing called coaching. You know, if if if you think thirty years ago, nobody knew what coaching was.

Christian Brim (04:21.687)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (04:25.517)
Correct. It was a mu I mean, the only c you know, when I started hearing coaching, you know, probably fifteen, twenty years ago, I was confused because the only coaches I knew were athletic coaches, right? Like that was the extent of it.

Chip Scholz (04:43.484)
Well, and and when you say you're a coach and and especially when you say you're an executive coach, they say, Well, who who do you coach for? Well, I coach executives. Well, I mean, I I know, but I mean like, you know, as football, basketball, are you with the Panthers? you know, yeah, it it was it was interesting. So, you know, I I I I stumbled into it and I was doing other things too, like

Christian Brim (04:54.347)
Right.

Christian Brim (05:01.388)
Right.

Chip Scholz (05:12.754)
consulting but doing assessment work and that kind of thing and and I just I just liked coaching. I I could talk to people all over the country and they paid me and it and it was it was a nice thing.

Christian Brim (05:26.263)
Yeah. Well, okay. coaching means w one of the things in in my ex observation is that coaching has become a very confusing word. what what i when when you say coach and and what you do, how do you describe it? How do you define it?

Chip Scholz (05:53.959)
Well, and I bill myself as an executive coach, which means I'm I'm talking to executives. I'm talking to people that are running companies and and and their staffs, versus a personal coach or a life coach. you know, listen, I'm never gonna go with anybody on their date. I'm not gonna sit at the dinner table and and talk about family dynamics and th some of the life coaches do that kind of crap.

Christian Brim (05:56.864)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (06:16.895)
Is that is that a thing?

Christian Brim (06:22.356)
Mm, okay. All right.

Chip Scholz (06:23.28)
Yeah, yeah. And and and so, you know, w what I do is I I help people be better at what they do. And you know, what I'm working on primarily is leadership strategy, a lot of people issues and and that kind of thing. And and so, you know, over the years I've I've developed a philosophy about leadership and and that came out in a book that that I just published.

Christian Brim (06:32.469)
Mm.

Chip Scholz (06:51.25)
And and so, you know, that's what I do is I help people get to be better leaders. I work with a number of of business owners and talk about family businesses. we talked about that before. And I I really like family businesses. I like privately held businesses. you know, mostly because there's just a different vibe, you know, different different

Christian Brim (07:10.923)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (07:17.872)
level of excitement in in working with family businesses. So

Christian Brim (07:22.583)
So when when y you say leaders, that could be owner operators or professional executives, either either one.

Chip Scholz (07:30.395)
Yeah, yeah. so most of the businesses that I work with are family held logistics businesses. warehousing, trucking, that kind of stuff. in in fact I've I've got a client up in in Wichita and and they've got a location in Tulsa and and I've I've got another one over in Kansas City. and and they run logistics businesses. Now the one in Kansas City is now owned by private equity.

Christian Brim (07:38.923)
Okay.

Chip Scholz (07:55.783)
But I I work with a CEO and and so it's still a lot of the same dynamics, still a lot of the s same skin in the game. He was the CEO before they sold and and continued on. But yeah, it's it's just it's working with those family businesses and the family dynamics and it's usually the the owner of the of the business.

Christian Brim (08:19.709)
Yes. So when I I I had a colleague ten plus years ago. I I called him and I said, you know, and I re I he was he's younger than I am, but I was still ri I r I very much respected his his opinion. And so I was telling him that I I you know I really feel like I need to build out this external board of directors, and he's asking me why. And I'm like

Well, I feel like I need objective accountability, like, you know, a and and and advice. and he patiently listened to me and he goes, Well, you know, what you just described sounds like you need a coach. And I I because I was still in that headspace, I was like okay. I mean I respected him, so I had to th

To take what he said, but I just really it went in one ear and out the other, right? I didn't form an external board of directors, but you know, looking back at what the problem I was trying to solve, I absolutely did need a coach. And I've been working with the same coach now for four years, and it is not anything like what I thought it was.

I I think your your statement about making people better is is probably the best description, but can you give me a further description of like how how that how that happens? How do you make them a better person?

Chip Scholz (10:06.556)
That that's a great question. You know, here's here's the the thing. I very rarely give advice, but I ask great questions. And I would imagine you you have that kind of coach that asks great questions. So it's it's not my job to tell you what to do. You you've got advisors and bankers and and all kinds of people that that do that. It's my job to ask you questions.

Christian Brim (10:13.069)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Christian Brim (10:28.599)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (10:33.242)
that that you probably already know the answer to but just haven't thought about. And so it's it's my job to help you think in different ways about different things that that you know that are gonna surface during our time together. and and so I I'll I'll give you a a a I I don't have a really good example because I I've got so many, but you know it's it's just

Christian Brim (10:42.913)
Mm.

Christian Brim (10:50.423)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (11:01.904)
It's asking good questions. And one of the questions that I ask, you know, if if people if I ask a question, they say, I don't know. The question I ask back is, well, if you did know, what would it be? Now that sounds like, yeah, I I I can see your smile. That sounds like a real jerk question. But the bottom line is most people know what they're thinking. They just haven't said it out loud yet.

Christian Brim (11:10.338)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (11:19.809)
Yeah, yeah.

Christian Brim (11:27.169)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (11:31.164)
They haven't they haven't put it out in the world. And so, you know, it's it's my job to surface those kinds.

Christian Brim (11:34.135)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (11:38.006)
I I think that's a brilliant question. And I agree with you. I think that's the secret to great coaching. And and and so this would apply to leaders themselves coaching their teams, right? is asking great questions. And and you you're I think you're a hundred percent right. It's not about telling them what to do. I I I think there was for me a long time a a real lack of understanding.

The distinction between leadership and management, right? I I think that it's about asking the right questions and then just holding the space. That's what I call it. But like the the framework, just just like not filling in the gaps to the answer. Like let the person come to their own conclusion, because in my experience, I think you're exactly right. We have an answer.

Right. Like I don't know if it's the answer, but we we rarely rarely do I get asked a question by my coach. It actually happened this week, that I didn't have an answer for. And I had to jot it down and I've been thinking about it. But like I may have to pause for 30 or 60 seconds, but I I mean like the answer is there. And to me, the way I describe it, a great coach and a and a great leader draws out

what is already there in in the person. It's it's not like you're putting anything into them, right? so the the example would be Tiger Wok Tiger Woods, you know, swing coach. What is he going to teach Tiger Woods about how to swing a golf club? He's not. It it it's not about teaching him some skill. And I I b I guess because of the athletic context, I I thought it was a skills transfer thing.

Chip Scholz (13:38.193)
Well, and so you've you've covered a lot of ground there and and God, my mind was all bubbling, but you're you're absolutely right. it it's kind of like the old BASF commercials. We don't make the carpet, we make the carpet better. So I don't I don't make the executive, I just make the executive better. But you know, you brought up leadership versus management, and I have a really simple definition and and I I'm I'm into simple definitions. you manage resources and you lead people.

Christian Brim (13:48.674)
Mm.

Mm.

Christian Brim (14:08.077)
Mm.

Chip Scholz (14:09.124)
And and here's here's what happens is is we spend our whole life being judged and being compensated for what we do. So, you know, say say you're an engineer. you are compensated for your brilliance at engineering. And then all of a sudden, somebody comes along and says, You're a great engineer. Gee, you ought to be a great manager.

Christian Brim (14:11.181)
Okay, I like that.

Christian Brim (14:20.813)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (14:30.391)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (14:37.484)
Right.

Chip Scholz (14:38.5)
Which which makes absolutely no freaking sense at all. But now now I am and now I am well it that that's the way we that's what we promote. We don't promote based on if they're a good leader or not. We promote on if they're a good worker. You know, so super workers become supervisors. And and all of a sudden now somebody gets promoted again. And now they're a couple of steps away from the work.

Christian Brim (14:41.653)
No, no.

But that happens all the time. That all the time.

Christian Brim (14:58.625)
Mm.

Chip Scholz (15:07.772)
But if you try to hold on to the work, you're gonna end up being a manager, you're going to manage resources, you're not going to see people as people.

Christian Brim (15:16.363)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (15:17.702)
When you get to a leadership position, you're absolutely right. The the best cultures that I've worked with are cultures that are people oriented, performance driven, in that order. People oriented, performance driven. And and how do you get to people oriented? Well, let's let's go back and say, do you know where the idea of modern management came from?

Christian Brim (15:44.065)
Hm, some professor, I would assume. Drucker?

Chip Scholz (15:48.059)
No, no, this goes way before Drucker. this is there's a guy named Frederick Winslow Taylor, who in 1910 wrote a book called Scientific Management. And and in it he said, and this is he said a lot more than this, but in it he said, do things the way I tell you to do, and we'll get along handsomely. Do them in the speed I suggest and the method I employ. Just don't think, just do. Okay?

Christian Brim (15:58.669)
Okay.

Christian Brim (16:14.359)
Mm.

Chip Scholz (16:15.226)
And that became the management paradigm for years because what was the manager? The manager was the guy in the corner office, the manager was supposed to be the smartest person in the room. The manager was supposed to have all the answers. Well, if the rate of human knowledge is doubling every two years.

Can anybody have all the answers?

Christian Brim (16:38.666)
No.

Chip Scholz (16:39.728)
Well, and and I would I would surmise that that that was true fifty years ago, but it's even a lot more true today. And and so, yeah, as as a leader, I'm not gonna have all the answers. I'm not gonna be able to tell you every little detail of how to do your job. Which is great, which is okay. You know, th it's

Christian Brim (16:43.755)
Yes, a hundred percent.

Christian Brim (17:00.661)
Yeah. Yeah. I I I was I was thinking, I just had this conversation with somebody on my leadership team today, referring back to a book we read together, Jocko Wilnick's leadership tactics and strategies, I think. but he he was, you know, he's a former Navy SEAL and and does leadership consultancy now. But but in in the book he was talking about the paradigm, the the example of

Chip Scholz (17:17.074)
Could be.

Christian Brim (17:29.323)
The the LT that would come in and he was like, This is the plan, go execute it, versus the LTs say, here's the objective, come back with a plan. Right? And the difference in the results, the difference in the level of accountability. And it, you know, you can tell people what to do all day long with varying degrees of success.

But if you can engage them to solve their own problems and you know, absolutely as a leader, your job, you you you should have more experience, maybe more knowledge to poke holes in that plan and say, like, yeah, you you kind of miss this whole thing entirely. What about that? Right? But ultimately help them craft the better plan and then help them execute it because it's then their plan.

It's not your plan.

Chip Scholz (18:32.06)
Yeah, and and the best leaders that I know are the best ones at asking questions. And so I I'm designing a course for a a company right now with a couple of other people called the leader is a coach. And and it's so important to have coaching skills. I I've done this this thing called leadership series for a company for the last 17 years. And it's a three-year leadership program. The first year focuses on

Christian Brim (18:45.91)
Mm.

Chip Scholz (19:00.858)
leadership of self. The second year focuses on external, you know, speaking skills and and that kind of thing. And the third year focuses on leader as a coach. Well, we're redesigning it and and the third year is gonna be an an intensive more leader as a coach and and I I think that's so important.

Christian Brim (19:24.747)
Yeah, I I I had on this program earlier this year Michael Brody Waite. White White. Wait, no, wait, it is Waite. Michael Brody Waite. he wrote a book called Great Leaders Live Like Drug Addicts. And it I highly recommend the book. but it was

Chip Scholz (19:48.063)
Are they constantly constantly going through the twelve steps or something like that? Is that is that what it

Christian Brim (19:51.432)
No well, no, what what he did was he he was an addict, went to Betty Ford, got his life cleaned up, eventually ended up in a startup as a co-founder, and it's about how he applied what he had learned in recovery to leadership. And it's it's really a fascinating paradigm that we've been

implementing in our leadership team over the last couple of months. And what it basically boils down to is not acting out of fear. you know the thing the masks that we wear to conceal our fears. And the mask is not obviously a literal mask, but it's behavioral mask. Like these are the things we say and do

To cope with the fact that we have this fear, right? Without ever addressing the fear. And it's it's been a it's been a very fascinating journey watching my team and myself work through this, but like I've kind of come to this conclusion that, and I and I wrote a Substack post on it last week about it, like.

I I think we're all addicts in in in this definition. we construct very elaborate systems to avoid dealing with pain. And that that might be real pain, that might be emotional pain. it could be a fear. and and we're, you know, we're really good at it.

I mean, I built a whole business as a coping mechanism, right? And the only difference between us and the the guy that's in this 12-step program is that he got to a point where his life was on the line, right? And it was a life or death decision. Most of us never get to that point. And so we say, well, look at that poor sap. He's a he's an addict. I'm not. But the more I go through this and I observe and I'm like, it's wild to me.

Christian Brim (22:15.992)
first with myself and then with others, like the elaborate lengths our brains go consciously and subconsciously to protect us from from feeling those negative things.

Thoughts?

Chip Scholz (22:31.314)
Yeah. Yeah. I you know, it it it's interesting you talk about addiction in that way because we are all addicted to something. And you know, one one of the things that we talked about before we got on the air was talking about succession and you know, what what I find is that is that people are really addicted to their identity.

Christian Brim (22:49.442)
Mm.

Chip Scholz (22:57.348)
I I hadn't I hadn't yeah, I hadn't put it in that terms before. but their their identity is so wrapped up in the business that that they can't even imagine. like I I know a lot of people that are are second, third, or fourth generation and they started working in the business when they were tots.

Christian Brim (22:57.408)
A hundred percent.

Christian Brim (23:06.071)
A hundred percent.

Christian Brim (23:16.611)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (23:16.636)
You know, they were out on there on the warehouse when they were ten years old and and doing st stuff out in the warehouse. And they have worked in the warehouse, now they've worked in the warehouse for fifty to sixty years. And all of a sudden they're they're seventy years old and their identity is all wrapped up and they can't they can't figure out how they're going to let it go. And but but but but but

Christian Brim (23:22.563)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (23:37.152)
Yes, a a and I I'd say go ahead, sir.

Chip Scholz (23:40.69)
But I'm not I'm not talking about letting it go like, you know, quitting. I'm talking about like how are they going to step back? You know, how are they how are they going to how are they going to let the next generation take over? Because the next generation obviously isn't as smart as they are.

Christian Brim (23:56.953)
Right. Right. Yeah. No, no, that's you you nailed it. I mean, and and that's why a lot of entrepreneurs, you know the vast majority of entrepreneurs never sell the business, right? They die in their chair and then somebody picks up the pieces. There isn't any succession, right? I mean th i in my experience it's it's a small percentage. They get properly planned.

And and succeeded. And it's it's because of just what you you said. It's like what I don't know what I would do without the business. Like what what I mean, I'm not gonna go play golf. I'm not gonna go fish all day. Like this this is who I am, right? Pesh Patel, Dr. Patel, has been on the show a couple of times, and he was talking about research that had been done.

MRI scans on entrepreneurs' brains that they showed them pictures, various pictures, and they recorded, you know, their their brain activity. And the part of their brain that lit up when they saw images of their business was the same part of their brain that lit up when they saw pictures of their kids. And so so

It and this is male entrepreneurs. They didn't do any females. I'm assuming their brains are wired differently, because that's my experience, and observation. That that for a male entrepreneur, when they say that's my baby, they literally mean it. They don't understand it, but they literally mean it.

Chip Scholz (25:44.275)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's pretty crazy and and you know, I it it doesn't even take being a entrepreneur. I I I I worked with a a guy, he was head of the local rescue mission in here in Charlotte. he'd been for thirty years. He was he was the face.

he you know, he preached in pulpits all over all over the area on on the weekends. He wrote quite a bit and all of that kind of stuff. And he was getting ready to retire. I worked with him for about ten years and and the last five we're we're figuring out how he's gonna retire, how he how he got into the mindset of just letting it go. Because first of all, I think I think that was pretty pretty interesting that he wanted that help.

Christian Brim (26:26.486)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (26:33.78)
Mm. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Chip Scholz (26:34.14)
You know, I th I think that's that's a great amount of self awareness to to say that he wanted that help. But but you know, i it was it was great that he had it and he is doing a really good job of living that in retirement.

Christian Brim (26:50.252)
Yeah, and and specifically in in terms of succession, you've probably had more experience than than I, but you know, the clients that I've helped through the years that had generational businesses, that dynamic of I built this, you don't really understand it as well as I do.

And then the the younger generation has lots of ideas that they want to try and implement, and like they they get squashed. And it's like, you know, you what I've tried to convey to them is that like this can't persist healthy. I mean, I guess it could persist very dysfunctionally.

But like you have to address this, like you've got to have a conversation around this and come up with a plan or it's gonna be a disaster. What what what's been your experience?

Chip Scholz (27:56.979)
Absolutely. And and there's a lot of families that don't get together at at Thanksgiving anymore because of of the disasters that happen. I I've I've got I've got one so one one particular one I and this is this happens over and over again so it's it's not out of place. But one son

Christian Brim (28:05.197)
Yeah.

Chip Scholz (28:21.616)
Wanted to take the business in a lot of different areas. The father, who was getting into his 70s, did not want to go there, did not want to put any of the stuff that he had built at risk. So the son sold a portion of the company to private equity just to get his father out. so he gave up control of a part of the company.

Christian Brim (28:33.656)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (28:39.149)
Mm.

Chip Scholz (28:43.142)
to to you know it it was it was kind of crazy that that that happened. I had another one where the father during the recession the business had had shrunk considerably his his stepson had stepped in and had rebuilt the business but had no equity in it

Christian Brim (28:43.48)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (29:06.989)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (29:07.126)
And just wanted the father to give him some equity. And the father said, Okay, I'll give you some equity. And and I was involved very heavily in the conversations. but his his father said, I'll give you some equity. Two days later he reneged. Three days later he fired his stepson. And that started lawsuits that went on for probably three or four years until the father finally sold the business and and there was nothing left to sue over.

Christian Brim (29:21.966)
Mm.

Mm.

Chip Scholz (29:36.163)
you know, it it's you you see these these situations and your heart breaks, you know, because because it's just like you know. I and and that and and that's that's why I wrote the book, because because I've seen so many of those situations and and so the the book is called Handoffs, coming out in October, and it's the story of a f a family business who the eighty-year-old father is holding on with a tight grip.

Christian Brim (29:48.042)
Yeah.

Chip Scholz (30:05.978)
And has a fifty-four year old son that is you know is trying to run the company. And and I've I've shown it that there there are a number of people that have endorsed the book. And out of the fourteen, fifteen people that I had endorsed the book, just about every one of them said, Did you write that about our family?

Christian Brim (30:28.482)
Yeah, it was probably an anecdotal story like Lincioni, right? You yeah, yeah. So I but yes, because I I think the way it presents in the business is that there's a business problem, right? But it's not a business problem, it's a people problem. Yeah?

Chip Scholz (30:31.731)
it is. Yeah.

Chip Scholz (30:47.774)
yeah, yeah. Yeah, it absolutely is.

Christian Brim (30:49.194)
I I I know of one I I know of one he was an oil and gas magnet here in Oklahoma City who passed and this family was so dysfunctional that he he had told nobody he died in testate. I mean he was worth nine figures easy, and that was twenty years ago.

he died in testate. No will. It it ten years on, ten years on, the brothers, there's three brothers, they were still fighting with each other because they couldn't even find everything. Like he he he had stuff like, you know, buried in coff coffee cans, not literally, but like that kind of and yeah, yeah, because he didn't he didn't want anybody in, you know.

Chip Scholz (31:41.158)
Yeah, but but the the metaphorical coffee can, yeah.

Christian Brim (31:48.309)
Even his family, he didn't want to know what and and it's like, wow. wow. Wow. And of course, yeah, they they don't the the the the brothers hate each other. Like it and it's just ugly. It's just ugly. And the

Chip Scholz (31:57.905)
Yeah.

Chip Scholz (32:05.042)
Yeah, I've I've seen where it's where it's done well.

Christian Brim (32:08.118)
Sure.

Chip Scholz (32:08.624)
You know, there there's a fourth well, and it's now a fifth generation business, but there's one in in Pittsburgh. I there there are three brothers that that run the company and they run it really well. The father has a an advisory role and it doesn't stick his nose into the day-to-day. and it'll be interesting to see how the fourth generation passes along to the fifth generation. they now have fifth generation people that are are working in the business. but those those

Stories are pretty rare.

Christian Brim (32:40.972)
Well, I I was surprised another example that was was a success, at least on the surface from what I can see, was love's travel stops here in Oklahoma City. The the matriarch and the patriarch both died within the last couple of years and watching it go come up to that point I'm like

Chip Scholz (32:52.154)
Mm.

Christian Brim (33:02.26)
I feel really certain that this the next generation is going to go ahead and sell to one of their competitors or maybe private equity because, you know, the b industry was in consolidation and but the second generation is is actively engaged. They they have professional management, right? They're they're they're not they they at least had the humility to say we're probably not the best people to run this company and let the people that were there to do it.

but you know, it it's actually started to expand into different verticals and and the company's growing. So yeah, absolutely. It it it can happen, but i you have to address the people the the the people issue.

Chip Scholz (33:49.275)
One of the best examples I've seen of this is there was a a company that I do some business with and the founder of the company ended up when he turned 60 he hired an outside CEO.

Christian Brim (34:05.388)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (34:05.794)
And and yes, he was still very active and involved in the business and and still is it, you know, he's in his late 80s. He still hangs around like you know, and and dispenses wisdom every once in a while. But they they took they they don't let him drive anymore, but he rides his bike to to the office. but yes, it if it is it for for everybody around him, it's much safer. and for himself too, but

Christian Brim (34:24.748)
That sounds much safer.

Chip Scholz (34:34.066)
he the company ended up becoming an Aesop and and they're doing excellent now and it's all professional management. He didn't have family that even though he had a couple of I think a couple of sons. I think he had two sons. they were involved in the business and and you know that was that was okay. So you know it's it's the difference between seeing your business as an asset or a legacy.

Christian Brim (34:39.862)
Mm.

Christian Brim (35:03.244)
Yes, y y yes, and I think you you alluded to it earlier. It it's it's you know, and it and it probably has a lot of origins in that identity. It's the fear of turning loose. It's the fear of passing it on, that the of of the unknown. Because you don't know and losing control, you know, even though a lot of control is actually an illusion, you know, that you're you're

Chip Scholz (35:03.3)
If you if you

Chip Scholz (35:17.488)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Brim (35:29.9)
That's the fear that they hang that they won't address.

Chip Scholz (35:33.606)
Well, and I learned that from family therapy. The more in control you think you are, the less in control you actually are. But i th that I guess that was a bad joke.

Christian Brim (35:36.182)
Mm.

Christian Brim (35:44.363)
No, it's absolute truth. I mean, I I think I I I think I think being a parent absolutely teaches you that you don't have control. I I had a I had a colleague that his his daughter just turned eighteen and as soon as she turned eighteen she moved out and went in incommunicado and and his heart was broken.

Chip Scholz (35:46.459)
It is, it is.

Chip Scholz (35:54.684)
Yeah, yeah.

Christian Brim (36:13.142)
Like it it was broke. And I I I I very lovingly and gently said, like you what what you believed was not reality, right? Like you you thought you were protecting her and and you know controlling her environment and all this other stuff, but the way she perceived it was she was being smothered. And so like

Chip Scholz (36:13.305)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chip Scholz (36:40.955)
Yeah, prism.

Christian Brim (36:42.31)
Right, exactly. And so it it has since worked out. They have reconciled and it wasn't nearly as traumatic as he thought it was, but it felt that way because like his illusion was shattered and that's what it was. It was an illusion.

Chip Scholz (36:56.508)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, it I I I was listening to a podcast the other day and they were they were talking about assisted suicide and and and so they were talking about death and and our relationship with mortality. it you know, listen, nobody wants to admit that they're gonna die.

Christian Brim (37:06.478)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (37:17.646)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (37:19.158)
And I think that that fear of losing control, you know, especially if there's some kind of an illness or or something, that fear of losing control drives us to do a lot of different things. Like they talked about the assisted suicide as as being a a factor of wanting to regain control over something we have no control of. And and in fact, in fact, they they even some

Christian Brim (37:24.536)
Mm.

Christian Brim (37:41.453)
Yeah.

Yes.

Chip Scholz (37:47.367)
There was a lady who was on the podcast who is a death doula. So you've heard of a you've heard of a birth doula, but yeah. Well, and it's it's helping people come to terms with their own death. Well, so you you alluded to that with entrepreneurship, you know, that that the the death of a business or the transition of a business is is like the death of a child. Well, it's it's coming to terms with.

Christian Brim (37:52.842)
that's that's a that's a interesting moniker to carry.

Christian Brim (38:06.616)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (38:10.232)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (38:17.468)
coming to terms with with being okay with death that and and understanding that it's a normal part part of the process. And and I, you know, I I've I've been thinking about that an awful lot since I heard it. And, you know, as I get closer, hell, my my parents died really early. My my dad was 51, my mom was 56 when they passed, and and so I was an orphan at 30. And so I never thought I outlive with that outlive them. And

Christian Brim (38:25.848)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (38:45.365)
Mm-hmm.

Chip Scholz (38:46.98)
I have and it still blows my mind that I've outlived them. But but you know, as as you get closer you start to think about that, you know, how am I going to be able to l lose control? Or how how am I going to be able to, you know, how am I going to be able to handle all that? And

Christian Brim (38:51.638)
Mm.

Christian Brim (38:59.734)
Mm.

Christian Brim (39:04.746)
I yeah, I never thought about assisted suicide as as in the in those terms, but that makes perfect sense. And before I I was introduced to Michael Brody Waite, and and I was thinking about addiction, you know, like why do people become addicts?

This is before my realization that everybody's an addict. But but it was about control. That's what what I said. Like they they can control that one thing. They can control whether they take a drink. They and and you know, and that's it I I think I'm not a professional, I don't know, but I think there is an element of addiction that is control. It's like I can control this one thing. I can't control anything else out there, but I can control this one thing. And

One of the things Brody Waite talks about in his book is the discipline, the daily discipline, of really acknowledging what you can and can't control. and you know, like putting it on separate sides of the ledger. And, you know, when you're honest with yourself, you realize that that ledger of what you can control is very small. Like but but there's this fascinating dynamic I've seen.

Is that we we spend most of our time as humans worrying about the things that we can't control and ignoring doing anything about the things that we can.

Chip Scholz (40:37.67)
Yeah, yeah. D do you know do you know what the whole Serenity Prayer is?

Christian Brim (40:42.899)
Mm. Well, I know the Serenity Prayer, but I don't know if it's the same one.

Chip Scholz (40:49.478)
This is this is the same one. Most people remember, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. Here's here's the rest of the original poem by Reinhold Nieber. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardships as the pathway to peace, taking as he did, the sinful world as it is, not as I would have it.

Christian Brim (40:59.384)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (41:08.534)
Mm.

Chip Scholz (41:17.586)
Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will, that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with Him forever in the next. Amen.

Christian Brim (41:29.836)
I have heard that, but I am I'm very glad you shared it.

I a and I'm glad you went this

Chip Scholz (41:38.084)
Is is it isn't isn't isn't that about control?

Christian Brim (41:41.676)
a hundred percent. And and I think that what we've been talking about as an intellectual exercise is really a spiritual exercise, right? And I'll very I very briefly share this with you. I'm I'm still in the middle of it, so I'm not prepared to go over the whole thing. But my my wife and I last fall felt called to be foster parents. And we

spent a very long time getting approved, to the point where I was so frustrated with the process that I almost quit. I mean, like we were six months into it, and I'm like, this is ridiculous. I mean, like, what why are we not approved yet, right? And through the whole thing, we kept acknowledging like these delays are God's timing. He has somebody specifically in mind.

That he wants us to take. And a week and a half ago, this child showed up in our house, and it was absolute worst case situation for this child. Like I I I I can't go into detail, but like it was awful. And this kid comes into our home.

And st Stacy and I are just like, wait a second, this is not what we expected, right? No, no, no, no, no. Like we wanted someone that you know just hadn't been fed and taken to the doctor or wasn't, you know, like neglect, right? Because we'd been told 80% of the kids that are in in the foster system are there because of neglect, not abuse.

Chip Scholz (43:22.458)
It it wasn't a Betty Crocker moment, was it?

Christian Brim (43:42.915)
And we were both really struggling with it. and it was a temporary placement, like we it was never a permanent placement. but then it looked like the temporary might turn into a permanent, right? And we were both like, what is happening? Like and

I had this, I I said to my wife, Well, look, we can't say on one hand that it's God's timing and and accepting the providence of God. And then when he gives this this child, say, Well, wait a second, it's not the providence of God, because it's not what I wanted or what I expected, right? And I had this complete reframe of

of Gissineme. And when Christ is is praying.

If it's possible, let this cup pass from me.

Christian Brim (44:57.57)
He 100% did not want it. And it wasn't just the physical torture, it was the separation from his father.

Christian Brim (45:09.112)
But your will, not mine, be done. I had a complete reframe because it it's this wasn't this was not my wife got cancer, and there's this this thing that's happened to us that we had to deal with. This was what we had been called to do. And we got that cup and were like, I don't want to drink this cup.

And I I I just but each of us separately got to the point where we could say

Your will, but not mine. Now, the rest of the story is that this child is going back to her original foster home who wants to adopt her Monday. And so we didn't have to drink from the cup. But to me, what we've all been what we've been talking about here with the whole control.

Is is are you willing?

To really say your will number.

Christian Brim (46:25.721)
And for most of my walk, that c that was not the case. I mean, I said the words, but I didn't really understand what it meant.

Chip Scholz (46:39.57)
That is that is so cool.

Christian Brim (46:42.153)
yeah. When I get through with it and I can put it into writing, I will because I I mean the hand of God and the love of God is so amazing. It's indescribable. And the only response that I have been able to have through this experience is simply praise. Like I don't know what the response could be. but there's more to come on.

I can't wait to share the story.

Chip Scholz (47:14.578)
God, I we have to we have to stay in touch. That's definitely true.

Christian Brim (47:18.891)
Yeah. Chip, how do people find you if they want to learn more about your coaching?

Chip Scholz (47:24.816)
can go to shoals and associates.com. I'm sure you'll put it in the show notes. And the website, if you go to the website, there's an Easter egg there. if you go to what's chip reading, there's about 140 books that I've read that that have a review and some of the books I like, some of them I didn't, but but I say that. you may disagree with me and and several people have, but you know, a lot of my favorite books are in there.

Christian Brim (47:29.367)
Uh-huh.

Chip Scholz (47:53.712)
Got three books, or I got two books out, one coming out in October. got Small Decisions, Big Shifts, which is about coaching philosophy. Every Dog Has His Day, which is more of a personal you know, hey, here's here's what is the underpinning of that philosophy. And then handoffs is coming in October, available on Amazon and a number of different audiobook platforms as well. So

Christian Brim (48:21.303)
Brilliant. Listeners, we we will have the that link in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast, and until next time, remember you are not alone.