Grateful but Not Done: Jake Isaacs

Summary

In this episode, Jake Isaacs of Gathering the Kings shares insights on entrepreneurial leadership, community building, and personal growth. Discover how high-level entrepreneurs control their time, foster humility, and develop systems for success.

Key Topics

• Entrepreneurial mindset and leadership
• Community and peer support for entrepreneurs
• Balancing business success with personal values

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https://calendly.com/cbrim/30min

Transcript

Christian Brim (00:00.462)
Itch, itch Jack? don't, I can't remember anyway. I know, I know, but I don't, I'm not off the top of my head. Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Jake Isaacs of Gathering the Kings. Jake, welcome to the show.

Jake Isaacs (00:18.696)
Christian, thanks for having me, man. I'm excited about the conversation.

Christian Brim (00:22.062)
I am intrigued. So tell me what gathering the kings is all about.

Jake Isaacs (00:27.218)
Yeah, we are an entrepreneurial mastermind and coaching community for high level entrepreneurs.

Christian Brim (00:34.87)
And how do you define high level?

Jake Isaacs (00:37.672)
Thank you for asking. It's great. We want to work with family-minded entrepreneurs, people who are focused on not only building their businesses, but making sure that they don't lose sight of the reason that they're building those businesses, which is to take care of the ones that matter the most to them. So high level for us is not necessarily a dollar figure. High level for us is your ability to control time.

Christian Brim (00:44.973)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (01:06.232)
Hmm, interesting. We'll have to explore that further. So why the name Gathering the Kings?

Jake Isaacs (01:13.586)
Yeah, we think that kingship is a mindset. It's not necessarily associated to gender, but we want people around us that understand that they have a responsibility to take care of their community. They have a responsibility to take care of the ones that they have been given the ability to serve.

Christian Brim (01:38.639)
Yeah, I, I, I, I sigh because just today I was in a head space for, for a brief moment of like, I'm really tired. Like I'm, tired of, uh, making decisions, uh, of encouraging, of setting the vision of coaching, uh, of, of the responsibility really.

And fortunately, was, honestly, I was able to just pray and that resolved it. I can't say that that would be how I would have handled it in the past. But it's a heavy burden and it's a lonely burden to be in charge.

Jake Isaacs (02:34.385)
Yeah, definitely. Christian, you probably know this, but you know, there are statistics out there that 86 % of entrepreneurs deal with burnout, anxiety, some form of depression. And so that feeling that you had earlier today, you're not alone in that feeling. The problem is most people aren't vulnerable enough to talk about it because we as a society aren't really given the latitude to be able to be vulnerable like that and say that, you know, that the decision is heavy that that

Christian Brim (02:49.41)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (02:53.87)
Mm.

Jake Isaacs (03:04.081)
weight is pushing us down.

Christian Brim (03:08.174)
So your mastermind, how is this community organized? I'm curious.

Jake Isaacs (03:19.515)
Yeah, so we are from all across the United States. It's a it's a virtual community. That's how we that's our touch point on a weekly basis is via Zoom. We get together a couple of times a year to have some shoulder to shoulder interaction with one another. But really, we are just doing a good job on a weekly basis of getting in community with each other. It is not industry specific. In fact, we say that we're industry agnostic.

Christian Brim (03:44.482)
What?

Jake Isaacs (03:49.404)
Because we understand that the challenges that you have running a roofing company are probably the same challenges that a CPA has. just the widget is a little bit different. And so being able to talk to other business owners who have had success in a different field or a different industry creates this environment that we call agitation of thought. Something that you may not have thought of specifically for your sector of the market could work.

because you heard it work somewhere else.

Christian Brim (04:23.596)
I find that those are some of the most brilliant insights I have, well, brilliant for me. As an entrepreneur is looking at how others in other industries do things and seeing how that could be applied. Because I think whatever industry you're in and the longer you're in business, there's a tendency to silo and get caught in group think.

and and just like the in in accounting we have a great word a phrase an acronym actually called Sally and it Sally and and it's a legitimate accountant term if you see it in work papers it means same as last year it's really kind of stupid to be honest with you because I mean it's shorthand for like

Jake Isaacs (05:04.807)
Sally? Okay.

Jake Isaacs (05:12.887)
Okay, okay

Christian Brim (05:20.108)
I'm not going to explain what I did the same thing that I did last year, but it is kind of indicative of the mindset of like, well, whatever work we're just going to continue doing, right? Which is not a bad thing until you get trapped in it. OK, so you meet weekly. How big are the groups?

Jake Isaacs (05:42.398)
I'm sorry, say that again, how big are the groups? Yeah, so they're not individual groups. It's just we meet together as a large group. You can come as your schedule is available. And so we have weekly touch points on Wednesday afternoons where my business partner and I believe that regardless of the business or regardless of the industry, all business owners need to master four basic concepts in order to be successful.

Christian Brim (05:44.238)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (05:48.909)
Okay.

One group, okay.

Jake Isaacs (06:10.151)
You have to have an understanding of operations or fulfillment. You have to have an understanding of sales and marketing. You have to have an understanding of finance. And then you have to have an understanding of people or leadership inside of your organization. And so we get together every Wednesday afternoon to talk about one of those four topics and teach different insights from different industries.

Christian Brim (06:34.882)
Did you leave out finance in there?

Jake Isaacs (06:37.053)
No, if I did, it was an oversight. Finance, sales and marketing, people in leadership and operations.

Christian Brim (06:44.012)
Okay, I just didn't hear it. Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't hear it. I'm blind to it. Yes, yes. So I have been in entrepreneurs organization for 14 years. And we have a slightly different format where we're put in groups of eight to 10 that meet on a monthly basis in person.

Jake Isaacs (06:49.595)
Yep, nope. Definitely have control of the money and understand how that's moving.

Christian Brim (07:12.77)
Although there are some forum groups that meet virtually as well, that's kind of morphed, but the original model was, you know, face to face on a monthly basis. And we have some ground rules, which I think is important. There's, there's, you know, obviously strict confidentiality. That's, that's uber important. There's no solicitation. So like there's no.

you know, pitching your services. but we try not to put competitors in the same form, right? or business partners, you know, just so that you have that space to be as open and honest as you can be, or you're willing to be. and one of the things that I have found so profound in that group is, listening to others.

Jake Isaacs (07:59.518)
Sure. Yeah.

Christian Brim (08:12.48)
You know, so the format is pretty much the same of like updates and then like a deep dive where one member will come with an issue or a problem to discuss. But the final rule in the forum is that you don't give any advice unless it's asked for.

like you can ask for someone's advice, but it's all the Gestalt protocol of experience here. So, know, Jake, you come and you say, I'm having money troubles and in my business, I don't know how I'm gonna make payroll. And I thought I'd gotten out of this space, but I'm here I am a year later, like, and I need your all's experience around that. it's not, okay, Jake, well,

You need go to the bank and you need to get a line of credit or you need to look at your expenses. It's none of that unless it's asked. mean, and occasionally people ask for specific advice. It's it's okay. Well, let me tell you about when my business was in a cash crunch and this is what I did and this is how I felt and this is what I would do differently or this what worked what didn't work.

And what I found listening so I thought that the real value takeaway was more of like a collaboration of minds to solve my problems, right? And I'm going to come here and I'm going to say this is my problem. And then, you know, I'm going to get all this brilliant insight. But really the value for me over those over that decade plus has been when I hear someone else's experience.

on a completely unrelated matter that resonates with me and gives me some insight that I didn't even know was there. it's just being present, being willing to listen, not trying to necessarily contribute anything. I mean, yeah, you're expected to, but just that.

Christian Brim (10:31.15)
Passive listening and absorbing of what other people are experiencing and feeling and going through has been the most powerful to me.

Jake Isaacs (10:43.377)
Yeah, it's why through history we have learned through storytelling. You know, the spoken word passed down is the best teacher that you can have. And so being in environments where you're listening to people who are either further along or farther behind you, sharing from their experiences, if you're willing to sit in that environment, you can learn so much by just being present. You know, I think so often

Christian Brim (10:48.322)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (11:10.957)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (11:13.051)
we're constantly thinking about the next thing or checking off the to-do list. And it's hard for most people to be present in the moment. And so when you slow down enough to be in these environments, there's real power in learning there.

Christian Brim (11:22.977)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (11:29.824)
Yeah. And, so, you know, I, I'm curious, you have people come to you and say, what's this gathering? The Kings is about like, you know, asking, should I, should I join? What, what do you hear from people that choose not to go down that path? Like what, what are some of the things they say when you make your pitch, so to speak of why they choose not.

to engage you.

Jake Isaacs (12:01.405)
Yeah, you know, it's typically along the lines of, know, I don't need to pay for relationships. I don't need to pay for advice. I don't need to pay for coaching. I know what I'm doing on my own. It's it's people who believe that they have all of the answers and they can't contribute. You know, one of the filters that we use, Christian, when we're evaluating membership inside of gathering the Kings is this phrase, grateful, but not done.

Christian Brim (12:09.294)
Hmm.

Jake Isaacs (12:30.513)
We want people who understand that they've accomplished a little bit in life, but that there are always other levels that they can reach if they continue to stay humble and plugged in.

Christian Brim (12:30.754)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (12:41.004)
I love that humility is is a has been a very hard Learned lesson for me and and I think I'm not unique because I think There's a certain amount of hubris That has to be there to start the business, right? there's there's kind of a

I don't care what anybody else says. I'm going to do this. I can do this. The naysayers. I'm not listening to them. And so there's has to, I don't, I don't know if it's just self-confidence or blind ignorance or stubbornness. I don't know all of those things, right? That, yeah, that, that gets you on the journey, but I can tell you that my ego has caused me more problems than the market or customers or

Jake Isaacs (13:22.119)
Combination of all. Yeah.

Christian Brim (13:36.769)
Suppliers or employees combined like hands hands down, right? And and there's not there's not a way to unlock that learning If you're not willing like the if you have all the answers and You don't need any help then well, then you can't be helped

Jake Isaacs (14:01.339)
One of the things that we do with all of our members is we put them through what's called a predictive index assessment. Are you familiar with predictive index?

Christian Brim (14:09.518)
It's not vaguely familiar.

Jake Isaacs (14:10.853)
It's a personality test that the United States military commissioned back in the 1950s and it's continued to evolve since the 50s. It's fantastic. But to your point, we ask all of our members to take it when they first get started because we know that when you have a good idea of how you operate as a person and what makes you tick, you're able to be kinder to those around you. You're able to be kinder to yourself.

Christian Brim (14:38.2)
Mm.

Jake Isaacs (14:40.301)
And the predictive index is based off of four personality traits. One personality trait is autonomy, which is your ability to choose or to be self-sufficient. And to your point earlier, every single member of Gathering the Kings scores high on autonomy because in order to be an entrepreneur, you do have to have that gumption that you're talking about. You need to be able to have that stick-to-itiveness, not be afraid of failure, not be afraid to take the risk.

Christian Brim (15:01.387)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (15:08.967)
you know, kind of understand that it's going to be your way or the highway, and that's how you're going to be successful. The problem is that can only get you so far. Once you start incorporating team members, you can't live in that my way or the highway mentality all of the time. And so having an understanding of what makes you tick and what makes everyone else around you tick gives you the grace and freedom to interact with your team.

Christian Brim (15:17.762)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (15:26.232)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (15:35.981)
Yeah, that's one of the things that I really struggled with as a younger man. Because my vision of leadership, that my way or highway thing, there's a lot of it's culturally ingrained in us here in the United States. mean, we really hold up the people that by just force of their personality,

they can get people to do what they want. The Nick Sabans, the Steve Jobs, the, probably Bill Gates, the people that are just so much gravitas, so much weight, that people are going to do what they say regardless. But.

And so that's what I knew, that's what I thought worked. And I've come to the conclusion that I did not have the fortitude for that to work. I don't know. I think the people that can use that type of leadership, or even if that is real, maybe that's just anecdotal and that's what we spin the tails around, like maybe those people really aren't like that.

But that seems to be a really, really hard way to lead.

Jake Isaacs (17:08.603)
Yeah, I agree. You know, the joke I make a lot is I'm a child of the 80s and 90s. And so I grew up watching the G.I. Joe cartoons and the tagline at the end of the G.I. Joe cartoon is knowing is half the battle. And that's a phrase that I've applied to many areas of my life. Just because I understand how I tick, that's only part of the equation. I have to then show up differently. I have to be a different leader, you know, thinking that

Christian Brim (17:18.082)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (17:21.836)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (17:37.434)
I can motivate everyone around me the same way that I get motivated. Well, that's arrogance. That's trying to put a square peg through a round hole. And so at some point I had to pick my head up as a leader and understand, Hey, not everyone around me operates the same way that I do. Maybe I should cue myself into what motivates other people so I can use that carrot to help motivate them to get what I want out of life.

Christian Brim (17:41.624)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (18:04.396)
Yeah, totally. I mean, that that's a huge mindset shift that I think most entrepreneurs miss or they get stuck there is that they get constantly frustrated with their team of like, why don't they think like I do? And I'm like, dude, you're not, if they thought like you, they wouldn't be your employees. They'd have their own business, right? you and, but that requires you to be very uncomfortable because

Jake Isaacs (18:24.765)
correct. Yep.

Christian Brim (18:33.516)
You know, I think specifically around the management of people. Entrepreneurs don't like to be managed. They're highly autonomous, right? So I'm like, I assumed for a long time that people wanted to be managed the same way, which was to tell me what needs to be done. Give me the tools, give me the parameters and leave me alone. I'll come ask you if I've got questions. Well, that's not the way most people work, right? And that causes a lot of frustration.

Jake Isaacs (18:59.441)
No, not at all.

Jake Isaacs (19:04.209)
Yeah, no, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. You're right. And, and you know,

misconception is that it's your baby so someone's going to treat your baby the same way that you would. And that's not what you're paying them to do. At the end of the day you have to remember that your employees are here to collect a paycheck. Now if there's job satisfaction on top of the paycheck you've done a good job in building the culture of your team. But the reality is if they won the lottery and the Brinks truck backed up their driveway

Christian Brim (19:19.214)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-mm.

Jake Isaacs (19:39.326)
tomorrow they're not coming in to answer the phones for your plumbing company. Like, and so you have to make sure that you're building systems and processes around your employees that help them get the job done, but also help you replace them quickly in a matter of, you know, moments when you need an extra person or when you need to replace that person.

Christian Brim (20:05.29)
Yeah, yes. Okay, so I want to pivot and talk about this high level. I have a lot of thoughts around that. I think one of the problems that men have, I certainly have had, struggled with

for I would say 28 of my 29 years as an entrepreneur is my identity being in the business. My self worth being in the business. Whether I'm successful or a failure depends upon the business's success or failure. And

Jake Isaacs (20:49.895)
Yes.

Christian Brim (21:05.55)
I feel like I was a good father. I am a good father. All my kids are grown. I feel like I prioritized my family when they were young and was very involved. So it didn't, it didn't negatively affect me in that way. I always knew that my priorities weren't the business. Like for me, it literally was, you know,

God family country business like I I that was and I'd say country like community like maybe not the nation itself, but It was properly aligned as far as what I was doing but underlying that because I Derived my self-worth from the business it kept Trying to skew those things right like it was just it was always a challenge

Jake Isaacs (22:06.555)
Yeah, Christian, I think one of the things that you're talking about now is actually the root of why there is so much mental health issues inside of the entrepreneurial space. Because we don't properly have our value aligned. Our identity is 100 % the success of the business. I am a plumber. I own a plumbing company.

Christian Brim (22:19.842)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (22:30.35)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (22:35.245)
No, that's your vocation. That's how you've chose to make money. That's not who you are. And a lot of times we don't slow down enough to establish our own goals. We don't slow down enough to establish our own identity. And we're just grasping at what we see other people around us doing. And so we believe that the picture of success looks like a fancy foreign sports car.

Christian Brim (22:41.486)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (22:56.247)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (23:03.683)
and a big house, but if you actually were to slow down, that's not what aligns with your value. Your value is, know, success to me is being able to donate 10 hours a month of time to a local soup kitchen or to help in a veteran's ministry or, you but people don't take the time to define what success looks like for themselves. They don't take the time to establish

Christian Brim (23:25.23)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (23:32.763)
what their identity and what their value is. And so the business fills that gap because it's easy to spend time working, especially as men. It's easy to keep the calendar full.

Christian Brim (23:41.826)
There's always something to do. There's always something to do.

Jake Isaacs (23:45.853)
100%. 100%.

Christian Brim (23:47.212)
And it always, I mean not always, it's like it is compellingly addictive. Like solving problems, fixing things as an entrepreneur, finding that next gap and filling it, that feels good. Like so, you know, it gives you a rush.

Jake Isaacs (24:07.451)
Yeah, no, to go back to your point earlier, it's the ego, right? When you solve those problems, when you become the superhero for your team, it's a dopamine hit. I mean, it's a total rush. And that's where most people will establish their value is I need to be the fixer. I need to be the Superman. I need to be the guy that's wearing the cape and fixing everyone's problems and being the go-to. And that

Christian Brim (24:19.201)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (24:35.333)
mentality right there is what keeps most people from being able to actually grow their business and obtain the levels of freedom and success that they desired when they started their business.

Christian Brim (24:46.583)
Yeah, and I've even seen, I don't know that I'd admit to it, but probably. I've even seen where you create problems subconsciously so that you can fix them. Like you sabotage yourself. like, which you probably don't even notice what you're doing. Which is nuts. I mean, that's just plain crazy.

Jake Isaacs (24:58.685)
100%.

Jake Isaacs (25:07.483)
Yeah. Yeah. But again, it's it's because that's how you feel good. You know, my business partner tells a great story about this moment where he was slowing down to play a board game with his three year old son. And, you know, it was in that moment that he he felt guilty for slowing down and not being quote unquote productive in that moment. And so he had to reframe it.

Christian Brim (25:14.145)
Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Brim (25:29.895)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (25:37.721)
Success was building into his son success was building memories for his son and that's what was productive It wasn't you know, the 30 minutes of playing Jenga It was the the future memory that his son will be able to hold on to and and take away as an adult

Christian Brim (25:54.67)
I don't know who said it, but it was, it was like, and then we're talking about like golf, I think, and it was like, you, you, you have success in the business so that you can go play golf. then while you're playing golf, you're, you're feeling guilty about not being at work and thinking about work. And it's, it's like, it's so jacked up. It is so jacked up. And, and I, I, I'm curious how.

you help entrepreneurs like find those values. How do you help them figure that out?

Jake Isaacs (26:31.921)
Yeah, first of all, we try to get everyone to understand that the the notion of work-life balance is a total myth. You know, for you to feel like you've got to balance all aspects of your life means that you're taking away from one in order to give to the other. And that's not how you become successful. You don't you don't become a successful father by balancing your time. You become a successful father by being obsessed with your time.

Christian Brim (26:40.546)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (27:00.995)
And in the moments that you're able to give to your family that you're 100 % present. That means putting the phone in the briefcase or leaving it in the car. So the time that you have is valuable. Like you're there, you're in the moment.

Christian Brim (27:06.733)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (27:18.509)
Mm hmm. Yes. But, well, let me rephrase the question then do people come to you saying that my business and my values are out of line, like they're already are aware of

Jake Isaacs (27:34.386)
Yeah, I think that most people recognize that there's a different level that they can achieve and that they understand that if they keep running down the path that they're running down, they're going to end up like me, right? Me, Jake Isaacs. Part of my story, Christian, is that I couldn't separate success in my career with success in my family. And it cost me my marriage because I was too invested in working.

and the things that I said that I was trying to achieve through my business, I was sacrificing at home with my family. And so what we do is we talk to the entrepreneurs about building systems that give them the opportunity to get time back in their schedules. Because it is possible, but you have to be intentional about it. And most people are showing up every single day

Christian Brim (28:04.129)
Hmm.

Jake Isaacs (28:31.407)
reacting to the day as it happens as opposed to being intentional.

Christian Brim (28:37.165)
Yes, and and I think I think the next level thinking as an entrepreneur is understanding that the most successful entrepreneurs Are the ones that don't really do anything themselves, right? They just build the systems set the vision get the right people and And that can sound like pie in the sky when you're running a plumbing company, right?

But the reality is that the only thing that's necessary for the entrepreneur is to set the vision and provide the leadership. The actual mechanics of doing anything, whether it's the operations or the marketing or the finance or any of it, no, you don't. That's not critical.

Jake Isaacs (29:15.933)
Correct.

Jake Isaacs (29:28.313)
It is 100 % possible to build a machine that is successful. Most entrepreneurs start their entrepreneurial journey as the doer. And so they're building their business from the ground up. And so for them to get correct, yes, 100 % centered around them. They are the, the, the action driver, the revenue generator, the chief salesperson, you know, the guy that cleans the toilets from the break room because

Christian Brim (29:38.679)
Mm-hmm.

centered around them.

Jake Isaacs (29:56.978)
That's all that they can afford as they're getting started. And so the idea of letting go of some of those tasks as you continue to grow questions your self-worth, right? One of the things that we see with our business owners is they have a hard time disassociating their actions from revenue generation actions inside of the business. And so my time feels good.

Christian Brim (30:08.043)
Mm-hmm

Jake Isaacs (30:24.209)
going out to that job site and framing out that new room for the addition that we're putting on because the sweat, the backbreaking work, that is all associated directly to money that is being created by your efforts. But when you're building a business that is running as a machine, that's not the only part of the machine that needs to be successful.

Christian Brim (30:48.277)
Yeah, and I think there's a couple other things at play there is one, you may actually enjoy doing it, right? Like that may be something you actually derive pleasure from, not always. But there's also the predictability factor. Like our brains are wired for predictability. And any time we move into the unknown, the brain starts to work against us.

And I noticed this behavior, you know, when I started working with a business coach several years ago of like, you it's not for me, it was not, it was very subtle. It was, it was like, well, I, rather than going into that unknown thing,

It may have even just going to the coaching meeting. That might be the unknown thing, right? Or it could be exploring something that I was not sure about the outcome. It was, well, I've got better things to do. I've got more important things to do, right? And your brain drives you back into that stuff that is very predictable. You know what's going to happen when you swing that hammer or run that 10 key.

But it's not necessarily the highest and best use of what you should be doing.

Jake Isaacs (32:24.541)
Correct. Not if you want to continue to grow and push forward.

Christian Brim (32:29.751)
That's an interesting. Okay. So let's talk about grow. So I find that the default, status of every entrepreneur. like, let's grow. Right. I, I was that way. I'm, I'm still that way. Like, and I don't know that that's necessarily wrong to want to grow because I think it's, it's very hard to stay,

Jake Isaacs (32:41.885)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (32:59.741)
Level right you're either going forwards or backwards like Holding the line between the two is very difficult So so given those options growth does seem like the preferred one like not shrinking But it's the growth to what end like What is the outcome? that you are trying to achieve the the

like growth for growth sake really can just become another hamster.

Jake Isaacs (33:33.758)
100%. You know, we're wired as human beings. mean, through the history of mankind, the single thread that you can tie every generation to is growth and improvement. You know, it's the story of human history. How do we get better? How do we improve? How do we take today's environment and make it better for tomorrow? And you're 100 % right.

Christian Brim (33:48.469)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (34:01.721)
If you don't have a definition of what success looks like in your individual life, then you're just growing to grow and you're on this hamster wheel, not knowing what tomorrow is going to bring, not understanding what you're working towards.

Christian Brim (34:18.763)
Yeah, and that I think I think that honestly is goes back to the root cause of like, I because I mean, if we're honest with ourselves, the path should be for any true entrepreneur is to build a business, sell it for a lot of money repeat like that, right? But

because of our identity being tied up into it, the idea of it going away, selling it, well, like, what the hell would I do? Like, I'm literally dying. Like, what, what, right? And I've talked to entrepreneurs that have had very successful exits and then they sit around and they literally go into depression because it's gone. Like, I don't, don't, right? Exactly.

Jake Isaacs (35:09.404)
Yes.

Jake Isaacs (35:12.881)
There's no purpose.

Christian Brim (35:15.263)
Exactly. And so I think that fear of that unknown of like what's after that kind of sabotages ourselves of like, well, we'll just kind of, we won't grow too much. We're never, we're going to never going to get to that point.

Jake Isaacs (35:28.177)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because most people don't start with an end in mind, or they don't understand they haven't defined what they're working towards. Not to be a broken record on that, but you know, if you get up today, or if you get up tomorrow with no vision of what tomorrow is going to look like, the hours are just going to pass you by. And you're going to go to bed, not having accomplished anything more or less, you just have survived for the day.

Christian Brim (35:37.003)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jake Isaacs (35:56.784)
If you want to actually get somewhere in life, you have to have goals and you've got to have a vision of how to get there. You know, I can wake up and say, gosh, I really hope that I lose weight today. But if I don't take any action into the desire of losing weight, it's not going to happen for me.

Christian Brim (36:05.293)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (36:18.285)
Yeah, Dr. Kotz was on the show several episodes ago. He wrote the book Contextual Intelligence. And he talks about the meta skills of foresight, hindsight, and insight. so foresight is what you're describing in the future. And he said the difference between

you know, productive foresight and like fantasy is that you bring that into the present to drive your actions, right? Same thing with hindsight. Like most of us, I certainly did, spend a lot of time in hindsight in rumination, like beating yourself up about a bad decision or, you know, wishing that you hadn't done this or that.

rather than objectively looking at it and say, what did I learn that I can bring into the present to use, right? But no, you're exactly right. We can waste a lot of mental energy, both in hindsight and foresight, if we're not doing it the right way.

Jake Isaacs (37:34.737)
Yeah, no, 100%. It's easy to get your head in the clouds. It's harder to take that head in the clouds idea and bring it into tangible action for today.

Christian Brim (37:45.858)
Well, and I think I almost forgot his most brilliant insight. He said that the difference in people when they're thinking of the future, what makes it a fantasy is they don't think about how they're going to be different. They only think about how the results or the external variables are different. I'm going to have a house, you know, I'm going to have this money, I'm going to have these relationships, whatever.

rather than understanding that they're going to be different in the future and what about them right now needs to change in order to, like, we think that it's the external things that change, it's actually us that change that drive those external changes.

Jake Isaacs (38:31.677)
100%. Yeah, couldn't agree with you more on that. And the problem is we just don't understand how to create those actions. Perfect example, I was on a call with a client of ours earlier today, and we were talking about what his goals for the next quarter are going to be. And one of the goals that he said that he wanted to do was to have less chaos. It's like,

that sounds good and it looks cool when you write it down on paper, but what does that actually mean? You've got to be able to quantify what less chaos is. Does that mean you have less sticky notes on your desk? Does that mean you've got more time back with your wife? Like what does less chaos mean? And so we have these pie in the sky ideas or we have these things that we believe that we want, but there's no clear pathway on how to get them because we haven't completed the thought.

We haven't taken it one step further. And I think that's what Dr. Katz is talking about right there.

Christian Brim (39:35.244)
Yeah, and I have found that oftentimes when I am thinking about the future, the future that I want, the vision that I'm casting for the organization, there isn't a lot of clarity. I found one of the most useful tools for that is the Vivid Vision. It was created by Cameron Harrold. And it was actually

he runs an organization for COOs for the second in command, right? And the Vivid Vision was a tool in order for the visionary, the CEO, to give the rest of the team the clarity of this is what the future looks like. And the first time that I started working on it, I thought that the vision was clear to myself. But when I started going into the detail,

of like, okay, what does this look like? What does this look like? Like go through all the aspects of your business of saying, what's different? How is it different? Three years from now, right? I realized that I didn't have that detail. And then I was like, well, if I don't have that clarity and understanding, how in the hell is anybody else gonna get it, right? Like there's no way.

Jake Isaacs (40:58.663)
Yeah, yeah, there's there's an expectation gap which creates an execution gap. Because we assume that everyone understands what it is that we've communicated to them without any additional follow up or further conversation around what the expectations are. And so then you send the minions out on their way and they go and perform what they believe that they should be doing. And it is not what

Christian Brim (41:04.885)
Hmm. Hmm.

Jake Isaacs (41:27.889)
what you wanted. It's not what you thought that you communicated.

Christian Brim (41:32.536)
Yeah, I think it was the CEO of Samsung. Don't remember his name, but he said, I find that my job as CEO of this multi-billion dollar company is just repeating myself a lot. And I'm like, huh, okay, yeah, that totally makes sense now that I'm not CEO of a multi-billion dollar company. But even in my tiny little company, I do find myself repeating

myself a lot. And I used to get frustrated with it. But then I understood that like, no, this is this is normal. Like you're not you're not Moses, you don't come down from the mountaintop and say it once and then everybody goes, okay, well, I'm gonna go do it. That's not the way it works.

Jake Isaacs (42:19.729)
Yeah. Yeah. The gap between Cameron Harold's vivid vision and like the execution that I'm talking about, I think is done really well by a Gino Wickman's EOS process, right? Which is getting in on a weekly basis and having very specific scorecards and touch points to make sure that everyone is on the same page through the course of the lifespan of this project. There's not one big vision casting in the beginning and then the end.

Christian Brim (42:32.386)
Yes.

Jake Isaacs (42:50.225)
Hey, did we all hit the same bullseye?

Christian Brim (42:53.675)
Yeah, I love traction, love Gino. I've never met him, but we've been using EOS for about seven years. And I can tell you that I wouldn't run a business without it. I really wouldn't because...

Jake Isaacs (43:07.385)
I 100 % agree with you on that. And I would hazard a guess Christian that when you first started a system like EOS, it felt very monotonous and repetitive because you're like, I just said this seven days ago or last Tuesday I said the exact same thing.

Christian Brim (43:27.597)
Not so much. What I found with implementing EOS was I realized some very glaring holes in the organization. Maybe communication was there, but it wasn't the... To be honest with you, the thing that EOS showed me first was the lack of trust in the team. And...

If someone had asked me was there trust in the organization, I would have said yes, but the reality was that they didn't trust me to not go off chasing squirrels and change my mind. And I didn't trust them when they said that, yeah, this is going to get done. It would get done, but it was a circle, right? Like, and, and both of us were right.

There wasn't any blame there. We both were right. But having to establish that trust, know, Lincioni is one of my favorite business authors and his five dysfunctions of a team, that's the foundation of execution is trust. And we had to start at square one and it was not a lot of fun, but you know,

Jake Isaacs (44:42.406)
I

Christian Brim (44:56.961)
I think when I talk about trust with my team, trust is an ambiguous word. It could mean a lot of things. But in the context of work and working in a team, trust is I can tell you something that you may not want to hear without fear of repercussion. And that may not even mean like

Jake Isaacs (45:22.523)
Right.

Christian Brim (45:26.253)
oh, I'm gonna get fired, it means like you're gonna shut down. You're not gonna listen to me anymore.

Jake Isaacs (45:33.384)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When we go have lunch, we're actually going to be able to have a conversation. You're not going to sit there and stare at your chips and salsa. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I take, Pat's triangle a little or pyramid a little higher up and it's conflict. And I think one of the things that, that I have found as the workforce gets younger and younger, it's that we have developed this system where

Christian Brim (45:39.981)
Pout. Right. Yeah, well, me, it was pouting. I pouted a lot, you know.

Christian Brim (45:52.621)
Yes.

Jake Isaacs (46:02.863)
if we're in conflict, it's because I don't like you. And that's not the case at all. It has nothing to do with, your ideas are not valid in this scenario, but that doesn't mean that you're a bad person or I don't like you as a person. And so wading through some of those conversations has been rather interesting.

Christian Brim (46:23.019)
No, I think it's a keen observation that culturally we've shifted to like the pin ultimate status is lack of conflict. Like that's nirvana, right? Some people even say that that's love. really love is the absence of conflict. I'm like, no, no,

Jake Isaacs (46:38.919)
supposedly.

Christian Brim (46:48.801)
Just ask anybody that's been married a while. No, but mean, you're right. Like, conflict, healthy conflict. And that may be the key, is that people don't know what healthy conflict actually looks like. They're focused on all the destructive conflict that you see. But there is healthy conflict.

Jake Isaacs (46:50.973)
You

Jake Isaacs (47:02.214)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Isaacs (47:11.259)
Right. Yeah.

Christian Brim (47:14.455)
Sorry, they're mowing all around me. How do people find more out, let me restart this over. Randy, please edit. How do people find out more about gathering the kings, Jake?

Jake Isaacs (47:30.973)
They can visit us at gathering the kings.com. I'm also pretty active on LinkedIn and Facebook at Jake Isaacs So they can find out more about the organization both places

Christian Brim (47:42.527)
Awesome listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast and until next time remember you are not alone.