It's Going to Hurt: Haggai Klorman

Summary

In this episode, Christian Brim interviews Haggai Klorman, an entrepreneur with a rich background in various ventures. They discuss Haggai's early experiences with entrepreneurship, the challenges and realities of being an entrepreneur, and the mindset required to succeed. Haggai shares insights from his journey, including the importance of resilience, the addictive nature of hustling, and the lessons learned from both successes and failures. The conversation emphasizes that entrepreneurship is not a superior path but a different journey that requires a unique mindset and willingness to face challenges head-on.

Takeaways

• Haggai's first entrepreneurial venture was selling soft drinks at summer camp.
• The addictive nature of hustling shapes an entrepreneur's mindset.
• Entrepreneurs often feel unemployable due to their independent spirit.
• Current ventures include a telemedicine company and premium business cards.
• The journey of learning is filled with both successes and failures.
• Entrepreneurship is about solving problems and creating value.
• Resilience is key in facing the challenges of entrepreneurship.
• The importance of community and human connection in business.
• Entrepreneurship is a choose your own adventure journey.
• Not every entrepreneur will succeed, and that's okay.

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https://calendly.com/cbrim/30min

Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.199)
Welcome to another episode of the Chris project. I am your host Christian Brim. Joining me today is Hagi Klorman Iraqi of CEO of the Agaros group. Hi guy. Welcome to the show. How did I do? Okay. All right.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (00:14.206)
Hello, hello. You did pretty well, pretty well. It's a Gauss group. It's my holding company. I take such great pleasure with your radiophonic voice. It's such calm. Well, you are on a video podcast.

Christian Brim (00:29.206)
well I have a face for radio too, so it works well.

Christian Brim (00:37.675)
Well, actually we just record the, we record both, but we only produce in an audio mainly because of my face. So when, when we met, you kind of gave me the rundown of all the different companies that you are associated with to the extent that you're willing to share.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (00:48.355)
You

Christian Brim (01:04.432)
What you do? Why don't you tell the audience what you're working on?

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (01:09.07)
Sure, so I'll actually go back because I think I'll start with my first venture and then we'll jump into the future. want to give a thing. So I don't know, somebody asked me this question this week, so that's why it's of top of mind. Like, did you know you wanted to be an entrepreneur or like, know, bored, made and all those? And I brought up that I think it was in Miami.

Christian Brim (01:12.304)
Okay.

Christian Brim (01:17.541)
Okay.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (01:36.834)
in the summer between fifth and sixth grade, I was in summer camp. I was just like, no, I know, it's just like nothing fancy. They took over the school, they took over the school and like made it, like, you know.

Christian Brim (01:41.243)
Okay, what kind of camp?

Christian Brim (01:47.674)
Okay.

Christian Brim (01:52.067)
It wasn't like sailing camp or surfing camp or anything like that. Okay. Okay.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (01:54.446)
No, it was like basic. It was really basic. We had a pool with archery. We had football. That's what I remember. And we had like a classroom. That's the thing. And there was a cafeteria and it was only open during lunchtime, I don't know, 1 p.m. or whatever. And you could only get soft drinks in the cafeteria during lunchtime. And to this day, I remember it was $1.15. So I'm probably aging myself.

Christian Brim (02:02.043)
Okay.

Christian Brim (02:07.354)
Yes.

Christian Brim (02:17.617)
Okay. Okay.

Christian Brim (02:22.841)
Okay. Okay.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (02:24.69)
And I went back home, one of first few days, loaned money for my parents, but diet coke, Coca-Cola, maybe it was even New Coke at the time. Again, that's again dating myself, New Coke, maybe Sprite, but definitely those. Put it in my backpack.

Christian Brim (02:38.846)
okay, all right.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (02:47.854)
and started selling it to my fellow camp goers, right? Off the backpack, again, not cool to anything, but that was like, there was no other source between, know, I'm pretty sure it was like 25 cents a can, so the margins were wonderful. And I did learn my mistake though, I did give credit to some people, which never paid.

Christian Brim (02:55.622)
Yes?

Christian Brim (02:59.651)
Right. Right.

Christian Brim (03:08.88)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (03:17.358)
So lessons learned, but the margins were wonderful. And I don't know, like a week or two weeks into it, I get called in and I get shut down by the government. So basically I was undermining the, yeah, kind of thing.

Christian Brim (03:29.125)
Yes, yes. The fun suckers.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (03:37.102)
I don't know, I guess that kind of shaped my attitude for the rest of my life because the ability to get something done and hustle is very addictive. So that was my first step.

Christian Brim (03:43.928)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (03:54.181)
Yeah, I hear a lot of these stories, childhood stories of like just solving problems and that's what entrepreneurs do and to your point, is addictive. That dopamine rush of figuring out and solving a problem and see it come to fruition where...

You know, I mean, for a lot of people it is about the money, but the money is just confirmation that you fixed the problem, right? And it is addictive. was sitting there this weekend, mulling over some new ideas and I'm smart enough, I'm aged enough that I haven't spoken any of them out loud because I know the reactions of like, my wife is like,

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (04:25.912)
Yeah. Yup.

Christian Brim (04:45.861)
really, you're going to do something else. And it's like, you can't turn it off, right? Like you can't stop.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (04:54.574)
It's very difficult. It's very difficult. And it's...

And I think it's one of the things that drives people to try to be entrepreneurs or one way or another, Even as a consultant or actual business. I think what, again, I know you get to talk with both an EO and we get the chance to talk to a lot of entrepreneurs. I think entrepreneurs in general really do not like

Christian Brim (05:11.366)
Yeah.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (05:30.734)
to walk for somebody else.

Christian Brim (05:33.399)
No, we're unemployable. Yeah. Yeah.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (05:35.638)
Unemployable and one way or another. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and the funny thing is everybody knows who actually went into the road. You find yourself walking for your investors. If you have any, you find yourself walking for your employees. If you have any, your vendors and definitely your clients, right? I'm running out of fingers here. Uh, so it's not, you know, how does the Bob Dylan song goes? You got to serve somebody. It might be the devil. It might be the law, but you got to serve somebody.

Christian Brim (05:49.925)
Yes.

Yes? Yes?

Christian Brim (06:02.415)
Right.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (06:03.768)
So you do find yourself walking for a lot of things, but not for another person, right?

Christian Brim (06:06.896)
Absolutely No, I I've heard that you know, you train you trade one boss for many right and and and that is true I think the difference though for me is And what when I realized I was not employable was My frustration with people not wanting to Try the ideas that I saw and and it was like well

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (06:13.762)
Yes, exactly.

Christian Brim (06:36.78)
If you're not going to try it, I'm going to go try it. Like that's the difference to me is like being able to execute or act on your ideas, where as an employee, oftentimes you can't, which is stupid because, you know, frankly, you know, as entrepreneurs, we would love to a certain degree to have entrepreneurial

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (06:41.134)
you

Christian Brim (07:04.81)
ideas come from our employees. We'd love for them to solve problems without us.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (07:11.826)
And the question is, you give them the chance to do so? Okay, so I, okay, so you did ask me what I do today, so I'll answer the question and then I'll also reply to that so people don't think I'm running away from the question. So today I have a small holding company called, a guest group, it's an entrepreneurial, it's an entrepreneurial venture. Our tagline is we build our own ventures and we work with great entrepreneurs to build theirs. And.

Christian Brim (07:15.792)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (07:40.706)
Basically it means either build companies or projects under our group. Most of the time with a partnership with somebody with the main expertise. Or we do advisory work, even myself or the team with other ventures. We're usually like an entrepreneur on the other side. And we come in.

Christian Brim (07:56.751)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (08:10.274)
as advisors, but as fellow entrepreneurs, right? Like a non-consulting. So just to give a little more color to that, so it doesn't sound too abstract. So one, I have a telemedicine company that my partner was a doctor. It's called Better Weight for Life, and it provides GLP-1 medication. So Ozonpick, Wegovi, all that.

to people who are willing to pay out of pocket. And we provide the whole spectrum. So from the doctor's consultation, the prescription, the ongoing consultation, and the medication with our pharmacy partners, both compound and branded, medication to those who are interested. We also have under the group a company called Cards Biz, that's with a K, Zed and Dot Biz.

Christian Brim (08:56.368)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (09:06.67)
I know you also are a holder. Remember, we do smart business cards, so premium business cards that go for anywhere between $250 to $450 per card. They're metal, composite glass, and engraved either in gold or silver with semi-precious metals, and you don't give it away. You do NFC, like Apple Pay, and you share the information. So it's also, for example, like ventures that...

Christian Brim (09:08.207)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (09:34.894)
me and my team with partners developed and we are majority owners. And on the advisory walk, it ranges anywhere between strategic fundraising, IP commercialization, a strategy walk. So just like, I'll say what's on my LinkedIn. So for example, there's a company called, so there's a guy named Asaf Glazer, an amazing entrepreneur.

Christian Brim (09:37.104)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (10:04.478)
He is his fame is because he founded the company called Nanit. Nanit is the world's leading baby monitoring tool. It's a unicorn. It's a unicorn. It's not publicly traded, but it's a unicorn. So just to give a sense and it has revenue to justify it. And he is not an active in management. He now is with his new venture, which is called Vinst and they use AI.

Christian Brim (10:09.722)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (10:15.429)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (10:32.558)
he's using AI to democratize home cooking and I'm on the advisor board for example so I'm on the advisor board so something like that

Christian Brim (10:39.002)
Okay.

Well, you didn't start out there. So you had to have had some experience before you started investing in consulting. Give us the origin story.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (10:51.532)
Yes.

So how far to go? So like I said, the origin story started with those selling coke, legal coke of my backpack. It was the 80s in Miami. It was the cocaine years, but I plead innocence, It really was. Like I came back from school one day to our gated community and it was like, I don't know, like...

Christian Brim (11:01.038)
Yes. Yes. Not cocaine, just in case anybody's monitoring. Yes. Well, that's true.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (11:23.522)
tens of police cars and apparently our neighbors were very entrepreneurial drug dealers, young drug dealers. It was the 80s. So yes, so I always make that joke. I was selling coke in Miami in the 80s. Nothing on my backpack. That's a great line. Legal, before the FBI, legally, before the FBI knocks on my door. But I would say...

Christian Brim (11:36.494)
Yes, that's a great line.

Christian Brim (11:43.108)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (11:48.622)
move forward a few years when I did my undergraduate school. I studied law and I studied economics, but I worked full time. And that was like my real and only job. I worked in IBM. was an IT cybersecurity architect, and then I was in the business development. But in many ways, I always felt I was at least an entrepreneur.

Christian Brim (12:03.503)
Okay.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (12:18.486)
an entrepreneur because first of all, like I worked a full-time job and I studied full-time. So there was no way to do the job in a standard way except be measured on results. So even though I wasn't a big corporate company, the way I positioned myself, even not in a strategic way, just in a very kind of, I don't know, because you don't have a choice kind of way. It was like, okay, let's add value. Let's add value. Let's add value.

Christian Brim (12:32.058)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (12:48.236)
And very quickly, my job became, am I getting business? Am I working to get business? And am I working on things that, again, I was young, right? This was my first job. But in my second year, I was working on $50 million RFPs for the company. And luckily, I don't know if you know, but when you're young, you don't really need to sleep, so you can study full time.

Christian Brim (13:15.689)
That's true.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (13:18.188)
work full time and have a social life because you have 36 hours in the day. And that was one stamp. After that, I went to Boston College and to get my graduate degree in economics and an MBA. And again, didn't like, even though I misspent my youth, I misspent youth getting degrees, I...

Christian Brim (13:21.231)
Yes.

Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (13:47.758)
I have to mention I was also dyslectic and everything was, even learning was a bit of a hustle and convincing people and borrowing notebooks and negotiating grades and all that. But it's still, like, okay, what can I do? So anybody who has suffered for an MBA program, a graduate program, they push you very much into doing those informational interviews because they want you to...

Christian Brim (14:14.064)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (14:16.814)
basically get a job, And they put information in interviews. But I didn't know what information an interview is. And I was sent to this very interesting person that was the head of global alliances for State Street Bank. So State Street Bank and BlackRock today are comparable. At the time, State Street Bank managed like a trillion dollars, including Federal Reserve Bank's monetary reserves.

And you know, I go and I just like and I'm having conversation like we are having conversation, right? And then I said like hey, what do you want? It's like what's your problem? What do you need? And he basically goes at some point in the end of interview goes yeah, I have this asset Like we're trying to get to sell out. It has 400 million dollars on management It's in this emerging country

Yada, yada, yada. And to make a very long story short, a few weeks after I come back with a bio and solve this problem. Again, very long story, but the short bit. and I go, this is easy. I don't know how to get a job. it's foreshadowing and everybody knows, it's like, I just got lucky. Right? It's helpful, but I just got lucky and it was never that easy again.

But when I went on this journey of a few years doing entrepreneurial finance, of, was &A, investment banking, but not in the sense that I was working for Morgan Stanley or Goldman Sachs. It was more like deal making, bringing things together, and that, that. And I also went into a bit of technology transfer.

Christian Brim (15:50.853)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (16:00.418)
which is the same equivalent around the IP of core technology. And like it sounds nice and impressive, but it was like my batting average was one out of 10 at best. Like all those deals, they don't like, again, it's like.

Christian Brim (16:14.192)
Okay.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (16:19.468)
They don't like, maybe I'm being a little harsh, because we couldn't take that many deals at the same time, but it's like every deal has its warts. Everything has an issue. there's a lot of stories for each one. a things blow up. You have a consultant, you have outside factor, you don't control things. You always have to react and move things, but it was a very, like entrepreneurial experience in the sense that

Christian Brim (16:36.793)
Right.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (16:48.27)
You touched a lot of things, a lot of people, multiple countries, multiple subject matters between all gas finance and deep tech. like you kind of got like, it helped me kind of, it's not like I understand everything, but not be scared when I don't know everything and say, okay, I'm gonna figure out, or I'm gonna talk to people who are smarter than me.

work the problem and figure it out and list to its core components. So that was a period of a few good years, I would say five, six years there. Afterwards, me and my wife founded a company, we raised venture capital from top investors.

We originally was supposed to be a technology and LLM machine learning company before there was AI and that to recommend a recommendation engine for products in the old days before there were chat and all that. The technology was a failure. The marketing was a success and the marketing became the business. And what the marketing was, we built specialization.

Christian Brim (17:53.072)
Yes.

Christian Brim (18:03.044)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (18:17.618)
in what today you call community building and influencer marketing kind of creative. And we ran for almost a decade, think, a boutique, but I think the most prominent agency in the space of cosmetics and consumer goods in terms of influencer marketing.

while specializing in organic word of mouth, meaning most of our engagements and most of our projects, we specialize in not the trade of money. We say, hey, Christian, I'll give you money. You put in a lipstick and create a post on Instagram, TikTok or whatnot. It was more like, yes. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole field behind it. Yeah, yeah, A damn good lipstick, by the way. We specialize in...

Christian Brim (19:00.144)
gonna have to be a lot of money.

for me to put on lipstick. I'm not, yeah, sorry, go ahead. Yes, okay.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (19:11.982)
Let's build human connection with people that are likely to love this brand and product. Introduce to them like human beings, if they want to get paid, we say, totally understand it, we respect your time, but this is not this engagement. Not this engagement. Maybe next time. Walk on those thoughts, we'll say, yeah, you know what, let's try it out. And then build a relationship.

use their content, their credit as a benchmark for the next person and do this again and again again. Again, this is like we can do an hour just on this and this human psychology and the dynamics of social media, how you create a norm to create content, but that's what we specialized in. And we did very well for many years. We did do a few paid engagements, well, like, you know, with like,

medium to top tier influencers and the client wanted to pay them. But our specialty was what I used to call organic results for inorganic means, creating organic processes that require a period of six to 12 to even three years to basically build communities online that love your brand and create content, create that know.

While we were doing that, we developed a lot of business intelligence capabilities to monitor this type of processes. Then we took those BI capabilities and we then created offerings that focus on sea level, in for health companies and private equity. So the Bain Capital, Permira, General Atlantic of the world.

private equity that manage tens of billions of dollars. And from time to time, they would bring them us into the diligence team and we could map brand equity for public conversations while combining it with classical focus groups. So again, once again, a very diverse, very educational in-depth of how brands work, how marketing works.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (21:29.614)
how word of mouth works, what does a brand mean in consumer goods, and that's what it kind of developed. And between those things, we did the occasional consulting, advisory board to startups and mentoring. So all of us kind of accumulated. that's my two cent tool, basically, of answering your question. How do I do what I do?

Christian Brim (21:35.216)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (21:59.138)
How do I do what

Christian Brim (22:02.32)
Well, thank you. That was a good journey. Okay, so I'm going to go back to your childhood. Were your parents entrepreneurs? Okay.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (22:12.002)
Yes, yes, my father was an entrepreneur and my grandfather was an entrepreneur also.

Christian Brim (22:18.16)
Okay, so why did you go down the education track so hard?

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (22:25.388)
What so wow You will bring like like I'm almost being tears like I know if you were people actually see my bit, but it's

I think I had something to prove. I think I had something to prove. So I got, I have four degrees and I started on a fifth degree in mathematics just a few courses after that. Now, again, like, but I can't explain, I'm not a rain man. not, I literally bled through my eyes doing those things.

Christian Brim (22:44.368)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (22:52.218)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (23:09.966)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (23:10.926)
Like, again, there's a reason we said in beginning, there's a reason I'm an entrepreneur, okay? I am the quirky person. I am the person that, I got my, yeah, like, I got, until I figured out I was dyslectic, you know, I got my Cs and Fs. Later, I clawed Bs and As, okay? I clawed Bs and As, but the sheer amount of effort.

Christian Brim (23:29.167)
Right.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (23:40.448)
It took, okay, is the most. Yes, you can be, and again, I need to, like, I don't know what is the equivalent, but let's, without like, you know, getting into trouble or getting canceled because I'm trying, disabilities or things like that, but it's like, let's agree all human beings have some inclinations, right? Like somebody without legs.

Christian Brim (24:04.9)
Mm-hmm, right.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (24:07.67)
It will be harder for them to climb ever, ever. They can do it. And it will be a lot more impressive for it. Right. lot more impressive for it. Right. We were like more than if me and you did it. But it's like I took on, I took on a challenge, but I'm not sure in retrospect I should have. I should have, I had something to prove to God know who.

Christian Brim (24:11.011)
Yes.

Christian Brim (24:38.166)
Mm-hmm. Well.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (24:38.382)
Yeah, this is not to say that I'm a great believer in education and learning as like as you can see I I love reading I love talking I love I love learning from other people I I'm like I love consuming information and processes on models and case studies and things like that but the standard educational path probably was my attempt at self-mutilation and sadomasochism

That's like the thing I can say.

Christian Brim (25:08.868)
Okay. So, so do you feel like that you have proven to yourself that whatever it was that you're trying to prove to yourself?

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (25:19.83)
No, no, because I think it's like...

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (25:25.89)
You know who Seth Godwin is? Yeah, so he like, yes, he writes very, very eloquently and he has this books about marketing and things like that. But I think his best book in my opinion is The Dip. It's smaller, it's smaller, it's his main books. And it's a genius frustrating book. And the whole argument though is like man and a

Christian Brim (25:28.419)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Christian Brim (25:42.48)
I haven't read that one.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (25:54.926)
Paraphrasing here, dude, know when to quit. Okay? And in a nutshell, it says, like you either have to assume you're gonna be the top of the world in what you're attempting to do. So if you think you're gonna be the best whatever, right? The best piano player, you think you're the best tennis player, if you think you're gonna be.

Christian Brim (25:58.747)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (26:22.956)
the best entrepreneur you can be, whatever. Entrepreneurship, think the pie, you can always bake more pies compared to winner take roles in sports. whatever it is, then don't give up. There's a dip, you need to get through it, you need to suffer, suffer, suffer, suffer, But if this is not your purpose in life, or you're gonna be a good basketball player, you're not gonna be an NBA

Christian Brim (26:34.245)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (26:40.132)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (26:53.206)
level player, just quit early. So I see it, like again, of course I took a lot of good things out of it and every experience is raw material, but if you took me back in time, I would say, know, get a degree, get one, and all this energy, do what you think you can be good at, sorry, which is an entrepreneurial journey. Like, you know, like, you know.

Christian Brim (26:56.176)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (27:23.231)
Like make mistakes well fall on your face well screw up well

Christian Brim (27:25.114)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (27:30.314)
software because that's what you really want to do. That's it.

Christian Brim (27:34.607)
Yeah, I find it interesting because, you know, the most entrepreneurs have a higher level of persistence or stubbornness or like whatever the grit, whatever words you want to insert there. And I find it interesting. Knowing when when that no longer serves you, right?

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (28:03.352)
Yes.

Christian Brim (28:04.462)
So because in a lot of cases it does serve you because you can persist beyond the naysayers or the people that don't see the vision, right? And you believe in yourself, you believe in what you're doing and you keep going. But at some point, at least in my journey, that...

stubbornness actually starts to work against you. And, you know, I think about like all of these Hollywood movies or stories about the person that didn't give up, right? That's like a universal theme of, of someone coming out on top because they didn't give up, right? But they don't ever tell the story about the person that had

had the same amount of grit and determination, but the odds were stacked against them and they lost, right? Like, I mean, because that that's real too.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (29:09.134)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really weird. It's really weird. And you know, it's also, there's multiple layers to what you said. There's multiple layers to what you said. who was the guy that wrote the play, The Importance of Being Ernest? God.

Christian Brim (29:30.384)
Mmm, I don't remember. I remember the play, but I don't remember the author.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (29:40.238)
drawing a blank right, but he has a quote, but the difference between the difference between a strategy and a comedy is when the curtain falls. Okay, is one of the things, right? Because, and so it's like many things in life are the issue of timing, right? Because if you think even all those Hollywood movies, right? If you just like, you know, if you,

Christian Brim (29:52.99)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (30:02.255)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (30:09.858)
you know, went to black, if you go to black, where when the guy, the heroine, whatever, are in the gutter, bleeding, that's it, right? That's like, yeah, that's it. So, and even if the person succeeds, right? It's like, when do they succeed, right? It's like, what is a, you know,

Christian Brim (30:17.997)
Right. Right. Now it's a tragedy.

Christian Brim (30:29.977)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (30:37.684)
the story of the guy who behind Kentucky Fried Chicken, but he started making it at age 60 something, right? Just like, wow. On one hand, it's very inspirational. On the other hand, and this is what you're alluding to, is like one, yes, not giving up on the right thing, right? On the right thing, and that's a big thing, right thing, gives you a chance.

Christian Brim (30:44.175)
Yeah, yes, yes.

Christian Brim (31:00.559)
correct.

Christian Brim (31:05.945)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (31:06.446)
It's not a promise. It's an opportunity to be successful. nobody promises you'll be successful. Nobody promises you when you'll be successful. Nobody tells you how many frogs you're gonna have to eat on the way. Nobody says that. Now, other things you can do.

Christian Brim (31:08.751)
Correct.

Christian Brim (31:26.159)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (31:34.158)
to increase your chances of success? Yes, right? But nobody guarantees it. Nobody guarantees it. the second thing, and the second part is, that, so you say tenacity and the willingness not to give up. I would add to this, and this is for my personal, and this is we said experience here, and we talk a lot about entrepreneurial organization, those who don't know.

Christian Brim (31:39.332)
Yes.

There is no, no.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (32:02.006)
organization of 19,000 entrepreneurs worldwide. We all about experiencing, like sharing our experiences and being truthful as much as possible about the things that are hard and the things that are good. But it's...

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (32:22.286)
It's the ability to contain pain, psychological and otherwise. Psychological and otherwise. And the best metaphor, and I actually had a conversation about this today, is for me, a boxer or UFC fighter. Let's forget the second if we're good or bad. By definition, you're gonna get punched in the face. You're gonna get punched in face.

Christian Brim (32:26.605)
Mmm.

Okay. Yeah.

Christian Brim (32:41.379)
Right? Right?

Christian Brim (32:48.855)
Right. It's going to hurt.

Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (32:53.006)
So somebody like you're gonna punch your face and you're gonna get punching that face like constantly. Now, if this is your profession, you go.

this hurts like the son of a gun

Christian Brim (33:07.396)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (33:10.264)
But this is part of it. And I'm going to get punched in the face. But it doesn't take away the pain away. It doesn't take away the pain.

Christian Brim (33:15.191)
Yes. And, and, and entrepreneurship, it, yeah, I think there's a, there's a guild to it. The shine that is put on it that is unrealistic and, and, glamorized, entrepreneurship is hard. And it's your analogy of a UFC fighter is, is a great one because it's like,

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (33:35.31)
It's damn hard. It's damn hard.

Christian Brim (33:42.832)
I think a lot of entrepreneurs, myself included, I started my first business at age 27 and I thought that it was just this smooth path. And, you know, once you got to this point, you didn't have any problems anymore. Um, but it's like the founder of Boston market. Um, I heard him speak at an EO event.

And, he, he was a Italian immigrant and, from Boston. So you could barely understand him. but he, said, no business, no problems, more business, more problems. I'm like, yeah. So the expectation needs to be reset as an entrepreneur that you are going to get punched in the face and, it's going to hurt.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (34:28.814)
Yeah. Yeah.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (34:42.124)
And what might change is a combination of your ability to withstand that.

Christian Brim (34:49.007)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (34:50.912)
on what level of heights of...

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (35:00.142)
the same like what were the economic heights let's put it this way you're doing it okay what's the notes and how were you were you able to create a team of partners people but we'll get pension the face with you so another long so it's it's even it's a thing then it's a team effort and not just like not you right

Christian Brim (35:03.033)
Yes? Yes?

Christian Brim (35:14.029)
Yes. Yes.

Christian Brim (35:22.475)
Yes. And to your point about like where you're, you're, you're stopping the story, whether the, you know, the, the hair hero is bleeding in the gutter. that's, I think the fascinating thing to me about entrepreneurship is it's, it's, it's the old choose your own adventure novels.

When I was a kid, maybe you read them where you got to make choices and go to a different page, right? But entrepreneurship is exactly that like you you get to choose your own adventure and sometimes that adventure ends not the way you wanted or prematurely But that's all right. You can go back and start the book over and and or you can pick up another one and try that one

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (35:52.896)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (36:15.842)
That's like, you know, at its best, at its best, the capitalistic system, okay, at its best, which is not always the case, like state by state, country by country, person by person, but at its best, it acknowledges the possibility of failure being a non-criminal act, if we go back to death of prisons and things like that, right? And do that.

Christian Brim (36:36.751)
Yes. Yes.

Right. Right.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (36:45.806)
and enables you and enables you assuming you are decent actor, a more gentle actor, after you threw up...

and felt horrible on your lack of success or whatever this is to go and say, okay, let me try again or try something different or a different scope and things like that.

Christian Brim (37:09.775)
Yes, yes. And that's, if you are an entrepreneur, that's what happens. I think a lot of people think they want to be an entrepreneur and want to play at entrepreneur. And when it gets tough, they're like, I can't really handle this. And that's fine. But if...

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (37:33.602)
Yeah, totally fine. Totally fine. And by the way, it's like, think people should understand and be listening to this is that it's not a superior state of humanity to be an entrepreneur. It's just different. It's just different. It's just different. If you are a doctor in ER or a caregiver, like your contribution to humanity is enormous and wonderful. If you are an entrepreneur,

Christian Brim (37:43.981)
No, no, it's just different.

Christian Brim (37:51.375)
Mm-hmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (38:02.83)
Probably you didn't have a choice. You probably don't have a choice from some direction. Or you put yourself in a situation, you didn't have a And that's why anybody that asks me, it's like, should I be an entrepreneur? I say, no.

Christian Brim (38:06.671)
Right.

Christian Brim (38:16.398)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (38:22.799)
Yeah.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (38:24.364)
No, I mean, which is very different between you have a job and on the weekends you do something else or things like that. it's like, side hustle and additional hustle or whatever like that. That's amazing. I think that's like the best. So I have a family member. It's like, again, I'm not going to use the name because it's the story to tell, but they had a very

Christian Brim (38:31.073)
A side hustle, yeah. Yeah.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (38:48.814)
I don't know, of straight, straight less professional job, but even it wasn't necessarily, it was very respectable, but they even took on the, took on, not like better, they took in the aspects that are better for the soul and not necessarily better for the pocketbook as the main activities. But over decades, they were entrepreneurial in real estate in parallel to the job.

Christian Brim (39:09.261)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (39:18.574)
I'm not saying they invested in real estate passively. They were active, they did things and things like that. And they became relatively very successful in their later life. And so one aspect of their life was the trials and tribulation of a Greek comedy strategy. And the other aspect was, I put it on a tie. I'm putting it on a tie.

Christian Brim (39:41.997)
Right. Straight. Yeah. Yeah.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (39:47.426)
And I have a lot of, and for this person, I adore them as human beings and I have so much respect for them, for what they manage to

Christian Brim (39:55.78)
Yes, I've often said you mentioned dyslexia. I went to an EO event where they were talking about different characteristics or symptoms and they asked the entrepreneurs to stand up if they had these traits. And

by the end of her listing out all of these traits, everybody in the room was standing. And she said, well, what I just described to you was manic depression or something. I don't remember what, right? And from that point on, I've often said that entrepreneurship is kind of a mental condition. I don't wanna say a dysfunction or a...

you know, what's the word I'm looking for? You know, it's not necessarily negative, but like there's these traits that are common across a bunch of entrepreneurs that are just innate in them that they can't really control.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (41:06.67)
So let me, I'll play a little fake psychiatrist here, but it's, I think it's what we call, it's disagreeable, I think all entrepreneurs are a bit disagreeable. they're not anti-social necessarily in the conventional thing. But if you are, if you're,

Okay, and there's many, you you could be nice and you could be autistic and you can be an asshole. There's many expressions of that. And you could be a man and you could be a woman and so on. But in a way, if your sense of self-worth is doing what the crowd is doing, you will not be an entrepreneur.

Christian Brim (41:44.771)
Yes.

Christian Brim (41:59.344)
Mmm.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (42:02.19)
So in the sense, it's like, you you're anti-social or like, to somewhat your anti-social, contrary, yeah, but if you think about the human dynamics, you need to disconnect yourself from the crowd, from the majority, from the norm, from what other people say, what your parents say, what your community says, what something, to some extent. Doesn't mean you're anti-social in the...

Christian Brim (42:07.759)
contrarian.

Christian Brim (42:19.609)
Yes.

Yes.

Christian Brim (42:26.084)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (42:30.83)
in the fully negative sense of the word and the mental illness and so on but you have to be you have to be willing to say or not even say it's like

Christian Brim (42:39.279)
I'm right and everybody else is wrong.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (42:43.133)
Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (42:48.714)
or being, or not caring if you write a book, know, it's, you understand? So one way it's like this, right? This is like, and actually, so I had talked to today with a guy named Jerry Newman. Jerry Newman is, he's an angel investor in the period of 15 years and 50 investments, he reached an IRR of 50%.

Christian Brim (42:53.455)
That's fair.

Christian Brim (43:17.167)
That's impressive.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (43:18.462)
Super impressive and We had a very similar car a very similar conversation in In this in this regard, but he we also said like he said like his experience all entrepreneurs are not employable I'm not employable right all the panels have a little something Living okay, that does again that does not guarantee success that guarantees Attempting to enter

Christian Brim (43:33.487)
Correct.

Christian Brim (43:38.5)
Yes.

Haggai Klorman-Eraqi (43:47.918)
The man house, it's a, it turns into a man house, right? It's like you try to play the game, doesn't mean you win the game.

Christian Brim (43:49.357)
Yes, yes, yes.

Yes, that is that is a brilliant statement right there. Okay, thank you so much for sharing your experience and being vulnerable. I appreciate that. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. Until next time, remember you are not alone.