Ego, Leadership, and Bringing a Product to Market: Doug Katz

Summary

In this episode, Christian Brim interviews Doug Katz, co-founder of Nulu, a company focused on creating adaptive cutting tools. Doug shares the journey of developing Nulu, emphasizing the importance of innovation, intellectual property, and the challenges faced by entrepreneurs. The conversation delves into the loneliness of entrepreneurship, the significance of resource allocation, and the value of building strong teams. Doug also draws parallels between military leadership and business, highlighting the role of ego in collaboration and the necessity of mentorship for success. The episode concludes with a call to action for entrepreneurs to seek support and embrace their journey.

Takeaways

• Nulu is designed for adaptivity, especially for those with disabilities.
• The knife's circular geometry allows for better force transfer and reduces repetitive stress injuries.
• Intellectual property is crucial for entrepreneurs to protect their innovations.
• Loneliness and isolation are common challenges for entrepreneurs.
• Effective resource allocation is key to successful decision-making.
• Building a strong team is essential for entrepreneurial success.
• Military leadership principles can be applied to business.
• Ego can hinder collaboration and innovation in entrepreneurship.
• Mentorship and peer support are vital for entrepreneurs.
• Entrepreneurship is essential for economic growth and employee well-being.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.602)
Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is Doug Katz, co-founder of Nulu. Doug, welcome to the show.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (00:13.058)
Thank you, thanks for having me, I really appreciate it.

Christian Brim (00:15.562)
Absolutely. So we'll, we'll just jump right into it. What is Nulu?

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (00:20.722)
Nulu is, the name comes from the etymology of it, guess you could say, comes from Nuulu. So it's a knife originally designed around adaptivity, right? I'm a disabled vet, I have some of my own issues, designed it for myself. With my partners, we really discovered some ability to commercialize it and realize the positive impact.

and we're all a little bit older, so I think we also had the means to launch something and so it's an adaptive knife and sadly enough, I don't have one in front of me right now because I just got back from an event, so a lot of them are packed up, but it's more of a circular geometry than you would typically see with a traditional knife.

Christian Brim (01:07.096)
it still has a pointy end.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (01:09.216)
It doesn't. So what we did was when you think of a traditional knife, and I do have one of those here as any good bladesmith would, and this is actually a good example. This is a very primitive knife and this was what started my knife journey because my wife gave this to me and it was made by the knivesmith who I later took a class from. But you can see it only aligns with your body.

when you have a pointy thing on the end. But when you no longer need it as a multitasking item to do this and to cut, then you've created, it does this really, really well. It does this nominally well, but you can see you're holding it here and you're trying to cut here. If you're cutting, what it does is it's very efficient. It affects your,

your kinetic chain, if you're sitting it's very hard to do. So there's a lot of things and it's interesting because we've gone back and forth about do you, how do you address traditional knives, right? People like their knives. Knives are a very primal thing for mankind, right? It's what helped lift us up. It was one of the first tools. But when you don't need the point, the point is pointless.

And so that's why we went with this more circular geometry. And I actually could go, do you want me to go run and get one real quick out of my? Sure, hold on, give me two seconds. I have one in my storeroom.

Christian Brim (02:31.713)
Sure, yeah.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (02:49.398)
Alright, so coming right out of the bag here, right in our inventory. So you can see it's more circular. is the the sheath that we use, but hold on.

They're little bit tight coming out of the box, but you can see it's a very different geometry. So what it does is it aligns with your body. So if I'm standing, you can see that it, and it's really a bad view, it aligns with my muscular skeletal structure. So now it's direct force transfer as opposed to more of an indirect linear force transfer. And what it does is it enables people who can't cut

to be able to cut better because the transfer of force from their body to the blade is direct. And for people who do a lot of cutting, we're actually getting some interest in the homesteading, hunting, and outdoor community, as well as commercial. It allows you to cut without the risk of the repetitive stress injuries that can sometimes impact people who do a lot of cutting.

Christian Brim (03:56.942)
So this was not designed to be a combat knife. This is more of a...

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (04:01.398)
No, no, and in fact, it's interesting because that's been part of the challenge is the differentiation of knives, right? Some are more aggressive. This is meant to really be optimized in food preparation and some field craft. We're trying to figure out how it fits best in things like skinning or butchering because there are some specialized aspects, but...

What we're realizing is Nulu is less a knife than a cutting system. And we have some things that are about this that are gonna be coming out future, say like accessories that will allow for, you know, like a gut hook or something to be able to scale a fish. That will all be integrated into it. So it doesn't, it's not necessarily just a knife. It can do more at the time that we fully fulfill the roadmap.

Christian Brim (04:59.021)
Interesting. So how long have you been, when did you launch Nulu?

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (05:02.83)
It was about three years ago is when it was, when the inception was. It was very interesting as we were talking before, I just got back from an entrepreneurial conference that my West Point classmates run every year. And it was an interesting mark of time because I had been three years in a row and the first year I had 3D printed versions, right? That was about it.

The second year they do a pitch competition, sort of a shark tankish one. And I presented at that and this year I was exhibiting. So it's been about, I would say about two and a half to three years, full enterprise life cycle. I think in terms of the incorporation, we've been at it for a little over two years now as I've built the team and really fleshed out the project and gone to market. Cause right now we're fully at market.

Christian Brim (05:57.496)
I love that. I always find inventors of things. mean, like, you know, they say inventors, I think all entrepreneurs are inventors of a sort. But when you're creating a physical thing, I've always been fascinated by that and the patent process and just like how you come up with an idea in your head and make it a physical thing. what did you? Sure, absolutely.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (06:06.466)
Yeah.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (06:23.214)
And can I take a second on that real quick? Because it's something that is, it touches on the why of some of the things we're seeing in political policy now. But what's a shame is when you look at sort of the, what has really become of sort of the innovation space. And when I go to events like I want to, most of the people are tech, a lot of them are dual use tech. There are some physical products, but a lot of them are more, you know, again, heavily tech based.

And it's very interesting how anachronistic sometimes I feel with physical products. But I don't think you can replace sometimes holding in your hand like this didn't exist two years ago. And not to take away from apps I've invested in some of my friends' companies, but I don't know, it's fun being a product guy. And I hope that we get more of that as AI and other

Christian Brim (07:04.694)
Mm-hmm.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (07:21.068)
capabilities have democratized the means of not necessarily production, but the means of synthesis and creation. That really changes things in the entrepreneurial space. I did not consider myself a technical guy. I was not a product guy through the entirety of my career up until this. Most recently, I was a mortgage guy. But the ability to research patents and IP and other things to get help creating diagrams

where sometimes with IP, when you're talking about IP, two things can happen. You can have, well, a couple of things. You could have no IP, you don't want to do that. You can have bad IP, where you either didn't have a good attorney, or the communication wasn't such that they knew really what you were creating to be able to make the claims right, or you could have good IP.

AI and stuff like that allows you to do a lot of the work to where when you're finally doing some of these things you have a better chance of success. So what I'm hoping is that the Renaissance won't necessarily be in the manufacturing side because that's great whatever the Renaissance should be in the innovation side because at the point where we can strip out a lot of the cost of innovation and potentially the cost of creation of these things

then maybe the manufacturing becomes less of an issue. it's a part that everybody keeps talking about the manufacturing side. You don't need to manufacture if you don't have innovative products. And we have as much of a problem in the innovation space of big monolithic companies that...

in a lot of ways would be better off being broken up, but these companies have the deep pockets where the minute you get some momentum, they try and crush you. So that was a little public service announcement about IP, but it's something that can be the death knell of lot of entrepreneurs.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (09:20.266)
And when you told me, we were talking about your origin story in the beginning, the number of entrepreneurs that think they have IP, they begin to build a thriving business. And then in an instant, it's taken away from them. There's an entrepreneur who's in an organization called US Inventor that I'm in, named Molly Metz, who had a great, she's a world-class jump roper. And she had a jump rope she invented.

a bunch of companies that were competitors, some licensees stole it. And you know, that's when you talk about some of the loneliness of being an entrepreneur, when that happens and your life dreams get crushed, it's pretty ugly. So IP is something that they definitely need to understand, but they should be using the tools out there to create as many moats as they can because that will allow them to run their business.

Christian Brim (09:55.468)
Mm.

Christian Brim (10:17.613)
Yeah, intellectual property is interesting. Chris, who the show is named after was a chemist and his company made a paint stripper and he was a self-taught chemist strangely and he was also a ex marine so he had some similarities with you there but he never obtained a patent and

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (10:37.943)
Okay.

Christian Brim (10:47.121)
it never was an issue, but you know, I think when, you know, some things like Coca-Cola, know, they've never patented their, their recipe, right? Right. And, and that's, you know, some things I think facilitate that his product did because it's real hard to reverse engineer stuff chemically. so yeah, it is interesting. So.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (10:56.716)
No, it's a trade secret,

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (11:09.528)
Yes, right.

Christian Brim (11:15.149)
You mentioned the loneliness and I think that, you know, I heard this statement from a pastor several months ago and he didn't cite a reference, but it just resonated through that we as a society have never been more lonely. And I'm like, you know, yeah, that feels right. I think

entrepreneurs. So I don't want to set entrepreneurs above everybody else and say that loneliness isn't an issue that, you know, a lot of people struggle with. But I think the thing that to me really causes the loneliness is this trying to pretend put on a mask, if you will.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (12:13.441)
Right.

Christian Brim (12:15.098)
of everything's okay, I understand it, I've got it under control, right?

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (12:18.752)
Right, right. Well, and it's almost like it's isolation and not loneliness. Like I think the physical, like loneliness tends to be on the outside and when you're talking about it, it's the isolation, I think. But I think that's that's that's a, a unforced error because I think that like when I looked at parenting a different way and decided to tell my kids, I know nothing about,

Christian Brim (12:35.457)
Yes, no, I agree.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (12:44.01)
any situation in general. Like, everyone is new and I have never dealt with that. But the information that I have to then be able to solve that issue can help. But at the point that I tried to give up, or that I did give up, that the important part was the knowing, I guess the technical competence.

And when you elevate to more of the strategic and decision making and the other competence, the other stuff comes. And frankly, again, this is the kind of the military thing. When you're in the field, right, you're making decisions, but you don't necessarily know everything going on. You're making the best decisions. And people do things based on, hey, does this person generally make good decisions with the information they have at the time? I think that sometimes the persona people try and build is this persona of

perfection as opposed to, I do the best I can, I take care of the people that work with me, and generally I get it right enough that I built the intellectual and other capital with everybody to have them do it, and the ability to approach them when there are issues to make myself less isolated. So I'm lucky because the entirety of my team are mostly, if not all, over 50. There's a quiet professionalism. They've seen

commercial tragedy and personal tragedy. So I just think people deal with it differently and it's more collaborative. I think at a younger entrepreneurial level, sometimes there's something to prove and they think that what the world, investors, clients, everything want to see is perfection and this person's in control of everything as opposed to, wow, this person is very good at building a phenomenal team and executing and that's what I trust.

Christian Brim (14:37.407)
Yeah. And, and I also think, you know, just the way we talk to ourselves, as entrepreneurs, I was walking yesterday morning and I was contemplating and I was like, you know, I I've made some good decisions and some bad decisions. And then I'm like, well, wait a second. That's that's only known when you, when you state it like that, you only know whether they're quote good or quote bad.

In retrospect, you don't, you don't, it's not like you set out to make a bad decision or you set out to make a good decision. it speaks to what you said, like your experience, your, your, your intellectual capacity, the principles on which you make decisions. Like I I'm going to protect my people or, know, what other, what other values you make decisions on. And the reality is, is that we should strive to make the decisions.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (15:09.089)
No!

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (15:20.855)
Yep.

Christian Brim (15:34.584)
through a certain process or paradigm, not understanding that the outcome is largely out of our control, right? You know, we can control certain variables and we have to work to do the best we can with those things that we can control. But in life and especially in entrepreneurship, the vast majority of the things

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (15:46.507)
Right,

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (15:56.599)
Right.

Christian Brim (16:03.563)
We have no control over like you have no control over someone buying the knife or not buying the knife, right? Like you can't put a gun to their head and say, buy it, right? That's not how it works. So that outcome is beyond your control, right? So to sit there and try and control that.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (16:08.588)
Right. Right.

Right, right.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (16:17.516)
But you know what's interesting is the resource allocation isn't, right? So that's where, and that's where I think like it's interesting as you talk about bad decisions, you make them all the time, but the scale of the decision is I think what defines how you look at it in the macro, right?

Christian Brim (16:24.161)
True.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (16:37.39)
you know, if I said something on the counter and I don't take the time to make sure that it's fully balanced and falls on the ground, that was stupid. It was a bad decision, but the outcome is less. I think the bad decisions of people generally that stay with them are ones at a scale where part of not making the bad decision is understanding that scale, the risk involved, and then going to the right people. Because if the scale is such that it will affect more people than just you.

It is a leadership competence and an entrepreneurial competence to say, hmm, like what are the risks and who should I be talking to even in a short conversation? Or even going back to AI saying, hey, you know what, just take a look at the, do you think of this? And should I engage some other players? And I think then that really changes it, right? Just understanding, right? And it's sort of a research allocation, even your brain power and worry.

I can clean up the stuff that fell off the counter. It's not going to affect anybody else, but I can't clean up the stuff that maybe really adversely impacts how it affects even a small enterprise with four or five other people.

Christian Brim (17:48.962)
Yes. And I would say that really what you're talking about resource allocation, I use the Pareto principle all the time with me and my team in the sense that like 20%. And this is, I don't know how much you've, you've researched or utilize the Pareto principle, the 80-20 rule, but, but it's, it's, it's fascinating how it, shows up in pretty much anything that involves human behavior.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (18:18.647)
Right.

Christian Brim (18:19.129)
And the reality is, is that the majority of the things, it may not be 80 % that that that percentage is not set in stone, but the the ratio is is, you know, it might be two thirds to one third, but like it's it's that ratio is large that the majority of the things that you do really don't have much impact. And it's like you said, it's

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (18:43.789)
Right.

Christian Brim (18:47.565)
You can't focus on those things. Well, you can, but it's bad resource allocation. You have to focus on the 20 % of the things that are really gonna move the needle, that are gonna have the most impact. And you can't approach every decision the same way, or you would run out of resources, or run out of time, right? So you've got to identify those 20 % that are most important.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (18:52.173)
Right.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (18:58.221)
Yep.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (19:08.128)
Right, right.

Christian Brim (19:15.859)
and put your resources into making the best decisions on those 20 % that are going to have impact.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (19:21.794)
And I think, you know, the one thing that I've gotten better at, but still I think every is understanding then how to evaluate that, right? So if you're saying I'm allocating my time, financial resources or whatever, okay, when do you cut bait? And that's sometimes I think the harder thing is getting over what would be considered sunk costs. And that's actually why I like the entrepreneurial world. Like it's really interesting. You talk about entrepreneurial isolation.

but you can also look at it as entrepreneurial autonomy. The same thing that gives you the ability to make those more rapid decisions and maybe remedy a bad resource allocation decision are what make it lonely, right? Because ultimately that decision is the one that you live with. But again, I lucked out. I figured out that

Christian Brim (19:54.593)
Yes, that's true.

Christian Brim (20:09.537)
Yes.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (20:15.788)
I'm good at making the decisions when I have really good partners or when they're making their decisions when they need input from me. So I think that,

Experience and wisdom go a long way, I think, with entrepreneurship as well and patience. And that's why, you know, when I was at this event this weekend, I'm sorry, this week, Monday and Tuesday, and there were some younger, you know, younger entrepreneurs and when I come on podcasts, you know, and they ask me stuff, I'm like, find some older guys, find some folks who corporate America has unwisely displaced because they're only worried about what the cost is and they don't know about the soft cost.

of not having informal mentorship and things that bring down the stress level and all that. And I'll gladly continue to keep building teams because we have some other products we're looking at bringing out of those folks because I think that's what creates it, right? And if you look at like how the military does things, right? When I was in the army,

You know, you have your officer and you have a senior, more senior, not commission officer, giving them good guidance and the good lieutenants and captains and majors and everybody listen to their NCO because there's a wisdom to be able to have them not make those mistakes. A good entrepreneur can create that same kind of structure. It may cost you more, but when you don't have all the overhead, find the good, the good people. Don't be chintzy with, with equity or.

you know, equity for service if you find the right people because I think you live and die based on it. This didn't happen without my team.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (22:01.822)
And the more I realize that every day, the better I've gotten in everything I'm doing, right? It's all about the agency of others. And I think that helps. And it helps also with the isolation. At the end of the day, when you put your head on the pillow, if you're running an organization, yes, it does end with you. But when you empower people to help you make all those right decisions, you you're going to sleep much better at night.

Christian Brim (22:29.867)
Yes. And I think that like, you know, I kind of giggled in my head like, yeah, butter bars don't really know what they're doing. They have to have a good sergeant to direct them because they're new. don't know anything usually. And I think that the reality is that the NCO is in the same place as the lieutenant.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (22:46.786)
Yeah!

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (22:59.224)
Right.

Christian Brim (22:59.741)
in that they have to go to bed and live with their decisions as well. The difference is that guy's got more experience, right? And there isn't a substitute for experience, which is why I think entrepreneurship, trying to do entrepreneurship by yourself, and I'm not saying...

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (23:11.51)
Right! Right!

Christian Brim (23:26.541)
you don't have employees, what I'm saying is you don't participate in peer groups and have entrepreneurial colleagues that you discuss things with is a very dangerous place to be because you don't know what you don't know, right? And I've been fortunate enough to be in entrepreneurs organization for 13 years and

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (23:40.238)
100 percent.

Christian Brim (23:53.248)
one of the most powerful things is to be able to go into a group of your peers and say, this is what I'm experiencing. And they say, well, I'm going through that exact same thing, right? Or I have gone through that same thing. And to know that, I'm not the only one experiencing this. Like, this is normal. Like, you know.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (24:14.838)
Right, well and especially the innovation space, unfortunately what I think a lot of people going back to the patent side, but it could even be I've got a great service idea or I got a great idea for whatever. They think that the idea is what it's all about and it is it is, right? Right, and the thing is there's the number of people that will actually pursue an entrepreneurial path is very low.

Christian Brim (24:30.733)
No, ideas are a dime a dozen.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (24:42.55)
So you could tell to someone who thinks it's a great idea, says I'm gonna copy it, runs out of gas, even before they get back to their desk. But the reality is when you talk about entrepreneurial organizations, and I always encourage the people I meet check about like accelerators and the meetup groups that you're talking about.

Christian Brim (24:42.722)
Yes.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (25:02.09)
If people are going to that, they're not going to like, I'm going to go to as many entrepreneurial groups as I can to steal someone's idea. They're going to solve their problems. So I have found and I 100 % agree with you that you need to have that group of people to just be able to say, and they don't even have to know your business. Sometimes it's an ability to sit down and when you try and articulate the problem.

Christian Brim (25:20.129)
No.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (25:26.024)
they might not help you with the solution but they may understand you have a completely different problem than you think you do. And that's why I the more that you can get other people involved in helping you the better. And that's that's been my big level up and it's taken me a long time to get there and I think military guys especially.

Christian Brim (25:34.829)
of yes.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (25:45.805)
They create entrepreneurs and terrible entrepreneurs at the same time because they make great entrepreneurs with everything they've learned, whether they're enlisted, NCOs or officers. But they get out in the civilian world and they think, haha, I was like 5 % of the population. So there are certain skill sets I have. And if I'm with military guys and gals, I know that they know what I know. So I don't have to babysit. I don't have to do everything. But

in the same way when you talk about like a butter bar getting out there and being like, I have to show everybody I'm, I know everything because immediately they're thinking I don't know anything and I'm not going to be that guy. think military have been so lionized appropriately for so long that people get out there like I have to live up to that. I got to be Captain America. As opposed to saying, well, what worked for me in the military? Well, there might've been a platoon leader

in the same battery and I could or in a battery commander in the same battalion who I know from whatever and you know hey how are you solving this problem I'm having this issue and they forget that right because when you do that like all of you know that you don't know everything that you're going to be dealing with problems but I think that stands in the way sometimes of military guys

Christian Brim (26:58.646)
Right.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (27:03.98)
being really, really good. They get focused on the wrong thing as opposed to focusing on good decision making, character, honor, commitment to duty, sacrifice. The event that I went to on the last two days, one of the keynote speakers was, I think, was a major general. And what I loved is he brought up the...

eating grass, right, eating after the troops, making sure everyone is fed. If you bring that stuff to any endeavor and hire the right people, you will have some type of success. Might not be where you want to be, but if you build the right team, take care of them, and have a great product or service, it's not guaranteed. Timing matters, but you're more likely going to not be in the 90 % of businesses that fail.

Christian Brim (27:54.786)
There was a book, I think, Leaders Eat Last, I think. I think that is a book, yes. And I was also fascinated, we went down to Fort Sill and did a tour. They have a great, were you ever stationed at Fort, were you ever in artillery?

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (27:58.403)
Yeah, yep. Yep.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (28:12.392)
I was in the field artillery, so I did the longest officer basic course in the Army at that time, it might still be, and I think it's still at Fort Sill. think now though they have ADA there as well. But yeah, so I spent, and this is my Sill story. So I spent my OBC there, but when I was picking my post, when I was graduating from the academy, I wanted to go to Europe, really, really bad. I'd spent a summer there and really enjoyed it.

And the year before it was a downsize. So everybody who had picked Germany in the field artillery got sent back to SIL. So I picked four cars in Colorado because I said, I will not be stationed at SIL for my first four years. No offense to Oklahoma, but that was just not going to be in the cards.

Christian Brim (28:54.254)
no, no, Comanche County is a cesspool, I completely understand.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (29:01.324)
Very good beef though, some of the best steak I've ever had.

Christian Brim (29:04.119)
Well, back to my point was one of the, so you're familiar, but for the listeners, they have reconstructed the fort, and there's like a museum, there's also a separate museum of the progression of artillery, which I found fascinating. Then it was there that I learned what a caisson was, you know, they keep whirling along. So.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (29:27.608)
Right.

Christian Brim (29:30.593)
But they were showing the stables back, and they were talking about how the soldiers fed the horses first, right, before they ate. And I'm like, huh, yeah, that makes sense, because if the horses are dead, you're in deep shit. And I think as a leader, it's easy to think of your team as a

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (29:41.623)
Right.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (29:48.886)
Right!

Christian Brim (30:01.215)
A cog, I don't know, like something that can be easily replaced or, you know, it doesn't really matter who sits in those seats because I can just find somebody else. But, you know, the, the, and military guys completely understand this, but, civilians and I had to learn that the team is everything. Like the team you build is, and you nurture and you grow is.

the level of your success. It's not you.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (30:33.184)
Right. Well, and, and, and it's, as you were just saying that, and coming back from being in a room with people who are infinitely smarter than me, you know, you get, you get imposter syndrome. You know that you've hired good people when they are trying to put the processes, technology, capture the institutional knowledge and everything that would be required for anybody to step in and do their job if something happened to them. And I think that that's huge because.

You know they're not camping out in that job. They're about continuous improvement because they're looking and they're saying, one, I care about the organization and I know that in the event that something happens that they can still function and that they have their eye on improving the next thing.

Christian Brim (31:05.143)
Yes.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (31:22.842)
And I would say for me that the lessons with that that I think have carried into my civilian life from my military side was, you know a good leader when they will never hold back a subordinate from going to a school. Like in the military, schools are a lot about where you get certain certifications and can be very dependent on your career or have a big impact.

And I always remember where, you know, there were sometimes people would hold back NCOs or enlisted from going to a school because there was a field training exercise or something where they had to go and they just needed. And that always, you know, the best leaders didn't do that. They would say, well, make do. We know far enough out that we can, you know, but that's the reality. And when you take care of your people that way and say, we'll never hold you back.

They're the ones who will stay back to take care you, right? It's always that ironic aspect of when you take care of people, they do the things that the people who don't take care of them force. Kind of like if you don't send them to the school that will help them, then they won't go above and beyond to help you because they don't feel supported. But when you do the right thing, then they go above and beyond. So I think it's...

It's the things they ever go, yeah, that makes sense. And then they don't do it, right? Like they get caught in the day to day, they're like, I know I should be doing this. There's something in the cadet prayer that's always stuck with me is doing the harder right versus the easier wrong. And if 90 % of the time you do that with your people, you will feel a lot less isolated because they know that you're doing that.

Christian Brim (33:00.331)
Yeah, no, I that is sage wisdom. I our leadership team this year went through Jocko Wilnick's leadership strategies and tactics as a group. Have you read the book? Okay. It's basically a lot of his experience share. I guess he was he was a Navy SEAL, but he got sent back to San Diego to develop the leadership

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (33:14.734)
I have not

Christian Brim (33:29.965)
training course for seals. And so it was, it was around that experience and the lessons he learned deployed. one of the things that stuck with me is the idea that, uh, the leader, the, the, the, good leaders will do any job. Like nothing is beneath them. It's not like I I'm going to

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (33:34.368)
Okay.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (33:53.538)
Right.

Christian Brim (33:55.744)
I'm going to do everything in the organization, but I'm willing to and occasionally do. Like his example was going through and taking out the trash at the barracks. you know, that was just, it was a menial task, sweeping and taking out the trash. But, you know, he needed to let his team know that he wasn't above doing it.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (34:17.42)
Well, there's two sides of that. The other part, and I'm in a really neat situation now, because my daughter, last year, graduated from the Coast Guard Academy. And we talk about leadership a lot. And one of the first things she did when she got to her unit was, show me your job. And it is a part where you're showing you're not beneath it.

Christian Brim (34:29.675)
Oof. That's brutal.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (34:41.954)
but that also now you know what they do. And there's two things that come out of that. First, you could do the job in a pinch, but two, you know if someone's feeding you a line of BS. And I always felt that was important too, because that person who shows you that job isn't always gonna be the one doing it. And the ability to know if someone's doing it to standard and frankly,

Christian Brim (34:51.905)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (34:58.422)
Mm-hmm.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (35:03.822)
A good time to do that is if you hear them complaining about the process of that job, because that's the time to look and say, show me what you're doing, is there a better way to do it? And I think that's another big unlock, right? Like when you start looking and saying it isn't about me, none of it's about me at all. And when you do that, the other thing that I have found frankly as an entrepreneur and a leader is,

Christian Brim (35:22.369)
Yes.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (35:30.38)
I'm not particularly religious but I'm pretty spiritual. At some point I really got into like Zen and ego death and you realize how much it really plays into other religious stuff. when you look at a decision and you say, this decision about me or is it about, am I doing it for that reason? And if you look everywhere, if you're posting something on social media, is it about me and the likes and the self, you know,

that what's gonna feed me or is it something broader than that? And I think when you do that, that's a really, really big unlock too. When you're looking and saying, am I feeding my own ego? Am I doing something to benefit me completely financial at the expense of other people? When you go through that,

That's another big thing. becomes another big unlock because then you realize how many decisions that you were making were self-motivated. You know, can remember the day that my first partner, the guy who really is behind a lot of the design on this. you know, we teamed up and I was about to say I brought him on, but it was really we teamed up when I had a very early prototype that was Fred Flintstone style.

And one day he said, goes, how do you feel about me, know, saying co-inventor? And I'm saying, you are. So, and he was kind of taken aback by that. Like, oh, I didn't think it would be, I said, it's not about me. The idea was a spark in my head at a given time.

with which nothing would have happened had there not been the tinder of having the right people around. And my ego could have been my death with that because I still would have had primitive... albeit, you know, it would look cool, but it wasn't scalable, it wasn't... you know, I could have gone down the direction of making them on ones and twos and trying to sell them at farmers markets or whatever, but instead, like I said, this is largely commercial, commercializable.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (37:34.127)
But I think that's a really big unlock and I think that helps everything else, right? If you don't have an ego, you go to meetups and you talk to people and say, boy, I'm having these problems. If you don't have an ego, you bring people on and say, run the spreadsheets, run this, do this. What are your ideas? Let's figure this out. Is this idea crazy? I remember one day we brought a guy on board who now is a CEO, because I'm on more of the business development strategy, because I'm working on some other business ventures as well.

And we were talking and it was like his first meeting with us. And two of the other guys on the team are 87 grads from the academy. I'm a 93 grad. And I'm ADD. A lot of my creativity comes from that, but I'll kind of go off. And one of the guys was like, all right, you know, he went off and said, we got to stay focused. And the new guy was kind of like, you know, okay, is this how they do business? And we were all laughing. We said, this is absolutely how we do business. Because he was right to call me out.

and I don't have the ego to feel I was being attacked personally. We had a problem to solve and it hit a point where, and when you get there, that's where you have something special. And the beautiful part about being an entrepreneur with that is you can be pretty sure that the bigger guys that you're going after, if you're doing something like we are, aren't operating that way. It's all about egos. It's all about maintaining your status, whether it be,

Christian Brim (38:54.86)
No.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (39:01.726)
in forward momentum to be managing up to make those people happy instead of managing down or if it's in

Am I looking at every decision about will I keep my benefits? Will I get fired? Will I be able to pay my mortgage? And those are valid, but the entrepreneur is looking and saying, how do I grow to be able to continue to do that and enable people that work underneath me to be able to do that as well? And I think it's inherently different. And if you figure it out and you take what we've been talking about this whole time, the autonomy and independence

that can lead to the feeling of isolation and you turn it into becoming the Avengers and bringing on all the people that that will interlock to be able to strengthen their weaknesses and amplify their strengths in a collect you're going to beat anybody out there.

Christian Brim (40:02.108)
I love that statement. Doug, we're going to end on that note because it was so brilliant. How do people find out more about Nulu and what you're doing?

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (40:13.326)
They can go to newlunayas.com. I was going to say www, but some of my team are like, stop doing that. People look for you to have a walker and an AOL.

Christian Brim (40:21.964)
You're not putting you're not putting HTTPS, colon double backslash. Yeah. So, you know, it's fine.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (40:28.398)
Yeah, you know, they can find, they can always find me if they look. I've got a pretty big digital footprint. We will definitely promote this, this podcast as well. they can, we'll have, you know, if they find you, they'll see this, podcast that we have links there. I'm on LinkedIn. And because this is about entrepreneurs in a lot of ways, and especially your mission and your success story.

One of the things I can definitely say came out of this event that I went to the past two days is that belief that anyone in that room would answer the phone or answer message when they call. And I would say anyone listening to this, reference your show. If I can help them, let me know. I mean, be specific on how I can help. But I have not just my team, I have gotten to where I am now with friends who will

who will drop everything. You know, at this particular show, I have a guy who I was in basic with at the Academy and he has done well. He's a big part of this organization, but was consistently bringing over people who I didn't know what they did and making introductions. That's how people succeed. And I would love to help anyone out. can, cause I love your mission and having my class, the class of 1993 has had a lot of suicides.

from people who served and who lost purpose or lost the feeling that they had people out there to help them. That should never happen. It should never happen to military. It should never happen to anybody. So any help I can give. So not just on the Nulu side. Let me help anybody who's got an endeavor that I can pass on anything that I've learned. I can't say it'll be valuable, but I'll answer the phone.

Christian Brim (42:18.188)
I love that. I've through my experience with EO, have learned that experience share is much more valuable than advice. And so, you know, I'll have people, you know, reach out and say, well, do you have any advice? And I'm like, if you're paying me for professional advice as a CPA, absolutely, I'll give you advice. But as an entrepreneur,

the best thing I can do is just give you my experience and what I did and what I learned because that then puts the ownership of the decision back on them. It's not me telling you what to do. You got to figure this out yourself. But here's what I went through.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (42:59.424)
Right, right, right, right. When I get help, people ask questions. The other thing I would tell people is find the resources. think sometimes entrepreneurs think of things in a certain way and their score, especially for any prior military or active, there are accelerators that are either

specifically for that things like IVMF, or I'm sorry, Warrior Rising. But there are ones like Founders Institute that have scholarships for military. But there are also ones out there for disadvantaged businesses, minority or women owned. And, you know, of course, it sounds like all these carve outs. But if you're not part of any of those groups, there are other people that will help. There are overlapping affinity groups of people who fundamentally want to see you successful.

And you gotta go out and find them. You gotta pick through, you know, if you've been apple picking ever, you know, there's a lot of crappy apples out there until you fill the bag with the ones you wanna bring home. But you gotta have the desire to do that. And there's plenty of people, a lot of trees out there you can pick from. And I think that more entrepreneurs have to do it. Because I do think entrepreneurship is what is gonna be like the next decades of what makes our economy work. I think, you know, the multinationals,

really don't care the same way about your community and about the American worker the same way that the entrepreneurs do. Everyone that I meet loves their employees and wants to see them succeed.

Christian Brim (44:36.512)
Yes, I would agree. They don't want to and fundamentally can't solve the problem.

Doug Katz - Co-Founder NULU (44:43.18)
Right, right, right.

Christian Brim (44:45.472)
Doug, I really appreciate the insight that you've brought to the show listeners will have some of those links and the show notes not all of them because we referenced a lot. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. Until next time, remember you are not alone.