Transforming Pain into Purpose: Gretchen Schoser

Summary

In this episode, Christian Brim interviews Gretchen Schoser, founder of Shosher Solutions, who shares her journey from corporate America to entrepreneurship. Gretchen discusses the importance of mental health in the workplace, especially during times of change, and how her personal experiences have shaped her approach to employee wellness. 

She emphasizes the need for empathy in leadership, the significance of self-care, and the value of open communication during change management processes. The conversation highlights the transformative power of turning personal pain into purpose and the importance of supporting employees through transitions.

Takeaways

• Gretchen Schoser emphasizes the importance of mental health in the workplace.
• She shares her personal journey of overcoming depression and finding purpose.
• The need for empathy in leadership is crucial during change management.
• Self-care is not just a buzzword; it's essential for well-being.
• Open communication can help employees feel supported during transitions.
• Chasing joy rather than money leads to greater fulfillment.
• Change management should focus on employee perspectives and needs.
• Gretchen advocates for small, manageable changes rather than overwhelming employees.
• Humor and relatability can enhance communication and buy-in from employees.
• Asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.538)
Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Gretchen Shosher of Shosher Solutions. Gretchen, welcome.

Gretchen  Schoser (00:13.39)
Thank you. I'm so honored to be here this morning.

Christian Brim (00:16.536)
All right, so I'm going to start with what is a Schoßer solution?

Gretchen  Schoser (00:22.622)
shows their solution. So I'm a very small company, one person. I took my 45 years in corporate America and placed it into my little business. So I do implementations for UKG recruiting and onboarding. That's one side of my business, the technical side. On the wellness side, I do, I really work with companies to ensure that they are

taking care of their employees' mental health, especially during change management because that's the one time that they actually forget about employees' mental health. And making sure that they have the tools for like burnout, stress management, know, employer appreciation, and just ensuring that they have all the right tools to ensure that their employees are performing.

Christian Brim (01:14.67)
So I'm assuming there's some experience in those 45 years that led you to want to do this.

I mean, was that what you did in corporate America or, was it a reaction to your experience in corporate America?

Gretchen  Schoser (01:32.722)
It was a knee-jerk response. In November of 2024, a very small consulting firm I was working for got acquired by one of the top five consulting firms. And when I had taken my early retirement, I had made myself a promise that I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever work for a big company again. And, you know, as it is, you know,

I couldn't make a resting bitch face go away fast enough. And I had an opportunity to open up my own company in January of this year and really just follow my passion and do the things that make my heart feel good. And I love what I do. Within two weeks of me starting my own company, I had a customer. And I didn't even do any advertising.

Christian Brim (02:10.008)
Hmm?

Christian Brim (02:23.094)
Right. Well, that's a good sign that one, you've identified a need and two, that you are called to do it. I don't think with entrepreneurs there's enough discussion or acknowledgement around a calling. And I think it shows up as a passion.

I've I've come to believe and in my experience that that that, you know, that passion was put there, like I was not. I was not born with that passion. There was it was a series of events that created the passion. And a response to those events, but that

there was an overarching plan by my creator that this this would be my calling like that this is this is why and this may sound woo woo to a lot of people but like this is why I created you this is why you're here and I don't I don't think people entrepreneurs really think about it in those terms and maybe it's an age thing I'm getting old so maybe that's

I don't know. What are your thoughts?

Gretchen  Schoser (03:52.975)
So, like for me, it is my purpose. It's my passion. But, you know, two years ago, I was at the darkest place in my entire life. You know, I attempted suicide on Christmas Day, 2022.

Christian Brim (04:06.35)
Mmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (04:13.806)
By the grace of God, I'm still alive today and I'm so very thankful to be alive. I was within 20 minutes of taking my life. But after that happened, like I had that small glimmer of hope that things would get better and they did. They got a bazillion times better, better than I ever thought. Like, you know, I launched with my best friend an award-winning podcast, but I turned all that pain into purpose.

And so when I opened up my company in January of this year, I got to see everything come full circle, right? From the lowest point in my life to where I am now. And now I enjoy every day. And you know, being an entrepreneur is, you know, it's not all sunshine and roses, but I get to make all the decisions.

Christian Brim (05:06.52)
Yes? Yes?

Gretchen  Schoser (05:08.686)
And if I'm having a bad, bad day, I can just get up and walk away. I don't have to tell anybody what I'm doing. But I also get to make a difference in the world and make people realize that, you know, quit chasing the money and chasing the dream. Chase your joy. Chase the things that make you happy because I'm going to tell you, nine times out of 10, that money is not going to make you happy at the end of the day.

Christian Brim (05:16.194)
Yes, that's true.

Christian Brim (05:38.414)
No, I'd say 10 out of 10. you read? let me I'm going to put a pin in that and come back to it. The Greek word for passion actually means suffering. And I learned this from Todd Henry, author of The Brave Habit and the Accidental Creative. And he said,

you know, in order to pursue your passion, you have to be willing to endure suffering. That was his take on it. But but I think your take is also a brilliant insight in that from the suffering comes the response, right? Would you care to? Well, before I do that, I'll say

Keith Baker, think it's Keith Baker, Dr. Keith Baker wrote the book, What Happy People Know. And I recommend it to everybody because I thought it was brilliant. But but he specifically says money absolutely will not make you happy. You know, it never does never has never will. But there's this persistent thinking that it will. Now, so read the book.

would you be willing to go into why you were considering suicide? What, what, what were the circumstances that caused that?

Gretchen  Schoser (07:19.002)
yeah, I have no problem talking about it. So the fall of 2022 was probably the hardest three months of my entire life. At the time, I was 59 and a half. I had been offered an early retirement. And in all ways, that should have been a good thing. But you have to remember, even, you know, two years ago, there was still ageism in the workforce, you know, and I still wanted my boozy toys.

Christian Brim (07:43.213)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (07:47.895)
brain.

Gretchen  Schoser (07:48.099)
you know, to be able to travel. that was one thing. And then my wife got shingles. She was down for eight weeks. If you've ever been around anybody that has had shingles, you know, there's absolutely nothing you can do to help them. I hit and killed a deer. I got catfished. If anybody wants to get catfished is like an actor portrayed them. Somebody portrayed themselves as an actor. got sucked in. But thankfully, like my brain like kicked back in and it's like before I spent any money.

We had a really good friend of ours pass away unexpectedly. My father-in-law passed away two days before Thanksgiving. Throw in a little bit of seasonal depression and some holiday depression. And then with work, they started taking away all the things I had done for the last 15 years because they knew I was getting ready for early retirement. On top of everything else, I'm a pure extrovert and an empath. And I didn't let anybody know what was going on because I didn't understand what was going on in my own head.

Christian Brim (08:36.695)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (08:47.982)
couldn't find my voice, I couldn't find my footing, I didn't understand what was happening, all I knew is that I was just done. Like I was taking on everybody else's pain, but I wasn't taking care of myself. And you know, those buzzwords, self-love and self-care, like they're not buzzwords. Like if you are not taking care of yourself, you can't take care of anybody else. And by the time Christmas Day rolled around, I just, couldn't do it anymore. I wanted to go for a drive, but it was minus 22 up here.

Christian Brim (09:08.215)
True.

Gretchen  Schoser (09:19.022)
And the cars wouldn't start. So I was just completely defeated, right? Like by the time I came back in the house, I was like, God, this has just got to stop. And I had gone back up to my room. I had a bottle of pills waiting for me. And I had remembered that a couple months prior, I read about the 988 suicide and crisis hotline here in the US. I was like, you know what? It can't hurt because like nobody knew how depressed I was.

Christian Brim (09:42.006)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (09:48.077)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (09:48.399)
As extroverts, know, we all wear this awesome mask that nobody actually knows what's going on. If you're doing that, please don't do it. Like the only person you've heard is yourself. And I ended up calling 988 and the woman that answered that phone was the most compassionate person I've ever spoken to in my entire life. She gave voice to what was going on in my head. And when I was done with that conversation, I went downstairs and talked to my wife for three hours. And she was mad because I hadn't

Christian Brim (09:54.541)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (10:18.196)
come to her. you know, being my age, you know, we've been taught our entire lives, you don't talk about what's going on inside your head. And she was just so thankful that I was alive, that I had that, you know, and it's gonna sound woo woo, just like you said, like I had a voice telling me that things were gonna get better. And they did. So much better.

Christian Brim (10:44.722)
Yes, I want to drill into that, you know, extrovert, not wanting to show your feelings, share how you feel. Did you did you feel like there was some?

Like, I just kind of want to dig into that. Is it that you were protecting people from the way you felt? Or you were ashamed of the way you were feeling? Or you weren't even really clear how you were feeling? Like, what was...

Gretchen  Schoser (11:20.846)
It was a little bit of all of it. Number one, I didn't understand what was going on. I had never, ever, ever been depressed like that in my entire life. And like, it was just one bad thing after another and, you know, soaking up everybody else's pain, but not, you know, telling anybody what was going on with me. And I think part of it too was shame because like I didn't know how to fix myself. I'm really good at like fixing everybody else.

Christian Brim (11:49.582)
Hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (11:49.625)
But I couldn't fix myself. And I think the third thing was like, I just felt weak. Like I should be able to like pull out of this. you know, those were all the wrong things to think. I know now, after two and a half years of really intense therapy. But when I let people know what was going on with me the day after everything happened, people were shocked. I posted that on social media.

Christian Brim (12:03.244)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (12:18.926)
just to let my friends know what was going on. And people were terrified because they had no idea how depressed I was. I would show up every day with a big smile on my face, you know, joking around. And when I finally laid all my cards on the table, because I didn't want people to feel so alone and terrified in their journey as I felt in mine. And I had about 200 people reach out and say thank you, because now they felt seen and heard.

Christian Brim (12:25.848)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (12:50.05)
Yeah, think entrepreneurs have certainly been my case that there's this

image, veneer, this person, this expectation that we believe that we've got to bring to the table, whether that's for our spouse, our employees, our customers or clients, our fellow entrepreneurs, there's this image.

that we feel like we need to portray. And for me, in a lot of ways, it was around living up to others' expectations of what, right? so if that's the case, then you're not supposed to have any problems. Like you're not supposed to have any cashflow problems or you're not supposed to

not like what you do, or, you know, there's all of these things that you're not supposed to show. And that's just a dangerous, dangerous place to be. Because really, at the at the crux of it, I think you're you're living your you're living your life for a falsehood. It's not it's not you. It's not what your passion is. It's not what you want.

You're living into a lie, a fantasy.

Gretchen  Schoser (14:34.67)
Right, it's like society's expectations of us. But you know what? We're all human, right? We all have messy minds. We all hit a mental brick wall. We all...

We're all human. We make mistakes too. And being an entrepreneur is hard. But I make it fun. Because I'll be 62 in a couple of weeks. I'm making this fun. And who opens up a new business at 61? I did. But I wanted to do something that I could put good back out into the world.

you know, help people with their implementations and help, you know, employers make sure their employees' mental health is good. I'm super passionate about both of those. And so, like, when I get up in the morning to come to my job, hear my little hovel, I'm the happiest person in the world. Like, even my wife said this is the happiest she's seen me in 20 years.

Christian Brim (15:41.806)
Yeah. And you know, if you you you want to call it the zone, like, you know, we talked about athletes, you know, and they get into this zone where they're just acting out of this internal energy, this flow. And they're they're super people. Superman, right? Like they can do things nobody else can do, right?

But as an entrepreneur, that's exactly where you should be. Yesterday, we had our leadership quarterly. We meet quarterly offsite. we got to the end. I always close with the question, go around the table of like, OK, where's your head at? How are you feeling? And to a person, they were all tired.

which was like, that's good. That means we did good work. And they asked me and I'm like, yeah, I'm not tired. I'm actually, I could keep going. Like I was in the zone. I was there. I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. I think along the way, I mean, you haven't had the benefit of this as an entrepreneur, but certainly,

as an employee, you had the opportunity like, you kind of drift, like you get lost in the doing. And you kind of forget why you started doing it in the first place. For me, you know, I, it's probably been 10 years ago, I got to the point where I just walked away from my business, I left it in my brother's, my brother was my partner, and I let it left in his hands.

Because I'm like, I'm sick of this. I don't like doing it anymore. I felt real guilty. Like, why? But I couldn't think of anything. I couldn't even process my feelings. was like, I don't want to do this anymore. And I'd lost my passion. I'd lost my way.

Gretchen  Schoser (17:58.319)
That's exactly where I got right before I was offered my early retirement. So like the week before that came, I was like, God, I got to win the lottery because like, I just don't want to do this anymore. I had lost all my passion for doing something that I really loved. And so when that email came, that said I was eligible for early retirement, it didn't take me six hours to like sign the paperwork. I'm like,

Christian Brim (18:13.729)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (18:27.16)
You know what, it's not the best package in the world, it's not the worst package in the world, but you know what, it's an out. You know what, you're going to pay me to leave? Good, let's make this so. you know, so that was like, like I said, it was a blessing in disguise, but there was a lot of like heartache and thinking going into that.

Christian Brim (18:32.363)
It's an out. I see an escape.

Christian Brim (18:51.679)
Yeah, and that loss of passion, what I realized, I mean, it wasn't for several years that I realized it, but the loss of passion was not anything external. It was all internal. And what I realized was that the company had reached my level of competence.

It could not grow past me and it wasn't any technical competence that was you know, that was the the. Deceiving thing about it. It wasn't like I couldn't envision how to go forward or or the tactics or strategies to go forward. The problem was that I personally had to grow. In order for the company to grow further and I did not understand that.

I just walked away from it, but I think a lot of entrepreneurs get to that point and they don't have an understanding. what I, I forgot what I was going to say was I love the fact that you had the presence of mind to reach out to somebody else and make that phone call. And I think that that is probably the most critical thing is not

trying to do this alone. I don't know where we get in our head that we've got to be completely independent, but we were not created to be independent. We were created to be in communion with each other and just, you know, reach out to somebody. I mean, even if you're not to the point of suicide, like if you're just miserable, like, you know, I don't, I don't like this anymore. Like, you don't have to be miserable.

Gretchen  Schoser (20:44.909)
Yeah.

Gretchen  Schoser (20:50.41)
Not at all. And the really awesome thing about LinkedIn now is there's these little entrepreneur groups for entrepreneurs where you can actually reach out to somebody. And like the same for 988. If you feel like you're in crisis and you may not have suicide ideation and you may not have community around you, but you can certainly pick up the phone and talk to these people. They will get you some resources to help you out. Because when you're working for a big company,

Most times they'll have like an EAP program where you know that you can reach out to them. But like as entrepreneurs, we still have those types of resources. And you know, the great thing about those resources is they're free, right? They're anonymous. Like, and like there's no shame in asking for help. Absolutely zero shame. Like we, we can't do it all by ourselves. You know, I'll take me as an example.

Christian Brim (21:28.045)
Sure.

Christian Brim (21:34.999)
Right.

Gretchen  Schoser (21:47.467)
So last week I hit a brick wall, like a massive brick wall. I ended up having to cancel a podcast interview because I just didn't have it in me. And like the host was a very, you know, understanding and like I, you know, cancel a couple of work meetings and my customers were understanding. You got to take care of you because you can't run your business if you're mentally checked out.

Christian Brim (21:57.719)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (22:15.437)
100%. I kind of want to go into this work that you do with employees and change management because I think it would give us some insights for all of us entrepreneurs.

What is it specifically you do with employees and change management?

Gretchen  Schoser (22:42.552)
So just based on my 45 years of corporate work experience, I worked for one company that did it right. Everybody else sucked at it. But I make sure that companies understand that, you know, to quit looking at what is future tense and look at the transition period, because it's in that transition period where you're going to lose, you know, employee interest. That's where a lot of stress comes up, you know, because now things are going to change.

And making sure that managers and team leads are doing some self-check-ins with their team members and ensuring that they haven't mentally checked out or what other tools do they need to get buy-in for this project, whether it's new software or if they're planning on doing a ton of layoffs or there's just change within the organization. It's all in how you...

you look at it from an employee level and not an application or a change level. And the people I've talked to, I work predominantly with small to medium sized companies. not opposed to a big company like Salesforce. making sure that the managers have at least a little bit of mental health training so they can identify stress and burnout and you know.

making sure that they're retaining these employees because a lot of times during change, like your top employees, if they're not mentally happy, they're out. And especially in this day and age, even though the job market like sucks, people that are tenured employees, if they don't like change, they immediately check out. And so giving companies tools so that they can ensure like their top performers or, you know, anybody across the board isn't.

Christian Brim (24:20.641)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (24:40.238)
checked out and you know ensure that their voices are heard and it's it's a win-win for everybody because if your employees are not mentally like sharp it's gonna affect your bottom line.

Christian Brim (24:58.069)
Yeah, I think, you know, I've gone through different iterations of change in our organization. And I think when I've done it wrong, it's been not thinking about it in terms of what's in it for them. you know, it's always we're making this change for the betterment of the company. Great. But the reality is that people are self motivated. Right?

Gretchen  Schoser (25:16.59)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (25:27.839)
And so any anybody is going to look at it. Okay, what's in it for me? How is this going to make my life better? And yeah, I discounted that like, who gives a shit what you know, I mean, like, we're doing this for the company. And this is why it's a better thing, right? But you know, the worst thing in the world, as an employer is to have your people

not want to do their job. And, you know, you can't fix that. Like if they don't want to do it, and they have all the skill, all the capacity, all the understanding, if they don't want to, you're screwed as an employer.

Gretchen  Schoser (26:19.854)
You are, but you know what? can kind of, you can flip the coin. Because if you are really willing to understand what your employees are feeling like, or how this is gonna make their job easier, like take the time. you know, have those one-on-ones with your employees. Like, find out what their grievances are. Because everybody's perception is different, especially like if...

Christian Brim (26:35.873)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Christian Brim (26:45.985)
Yes.

Gretchen  Schoser (26:47.326)
your employee has a mental illness like ashburgers or bipolar or ADHD or OCD, right? Because they all are thinking about their patterns. Don't move their cheese. Don't ever move their cheese. But if you're going to move their cheese, tell them why you're going to move their cheese and what that benefit is going to be for them.

Christian Brim (27:02.967)
Right.

Christian Brim (27:12.523)
Yeah, and and I think I think entrepreneurs have the tendency because we deal I perceive this that we deal with things at a different level a different like we have higher stress tolerances, higher risk tolerances. And so I think we discount a lot of the change. And like, well, it's no big deal, right? But as I've said on the show, it's not my phrase.

But like, to your brain, it's a saber tooth tiger. if there's no difference in your body and your brain's reaction, it's hitting at that existential level, like this is danger, I've got I've got to get away. And it doesn't matter that you don't perceive it that way. As the employer as the entrepreneur, they perceive it that way. Because and so you know, yeah, I was a thoughtless

boss at times.

Gretchen  Schoser (28:13.838)
And it happens to all of us, right? Because none of us are really taught about, you know, mental health in the workplace. We weren't taught about mental health in school. But, you know, a lot of it's just like common sense, right? Like, it's just common sense. you know, managers and team leads, know, they're getting their marching orders from above. But it's all in how you perceive that change and how you can talk to your employees about it and make them feel comfortable.

Christian Brim (28:22.178)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (28:28.692)
Mm, yeah.

Gretchen  Schoser (28:44.236)
That's the difference between everybody loving it and everybody hating it.

Christian Brim (28:49.535)
Right. And I would perceive that stress, the reaction that people would have, which is, don't want change. No one wants change. Please understand that. Entrepreneurs may be more comfortable with it than others, but people in general want things predictable. That's the way our brains are wired.

When people react very naturally, very normally, I would perceive that as pushback. Like, well, we don't want this. We don't agree with you. We don't think this is the right thing. No, it's not. It's not about you, dumbass. They're just reacting because that's normal.

Gretchen  Schoser (29:32.472)
Ha ha.

Gretchen  Schoser (29:39.031)
And if you're going to talk to an employee, do one-on-ones. Don't do it in a group setting, because a lot of times, employees don't want to cause a rift. And look like they're not gung-ho, like, yeah, let's do this. Take them, put them aside, and just talk to them like you would talk to your mom or your dad or a friend. Just find out what's going on inside their head. And then take all your notes and figure out a plan.

Christian Brim (29:45.099)
Hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (30:08.3)
Like maybe, you know, maybe they need a different set of tools to help them, you know, be gung-ho about the change. Maybe it could be that they just need to be moved to a different department because they'll never feel comfortable doing this. But like, you know, giving them options and not just shoving it down their throat. Because when you just shove it down their throat, and you know, as an entrepreneur, we have to play both sides of the fence, right? We have to be like,

Christian Brim (30:24.375)
Correct.

Gretchen  Schoser (30:37.964)
Yes, you need to do this, but we also need to give those employees some patience and grace, right? Because a lot of times it is a big change for them. So when I'm doing my implementations, I play devil's advocate because I've been in the customer's shoes before and I've been in the consulting role before. So you just.

Christian Brim (30:46.509)
Yes.

Christian Brim (30:50.721)
Yes.

Gretchen  Schoser (31:04.766)
know, patience and grace because everybody learns at a different speed.

Christian Brim (31:09.313)
Yes, and the end result may be that like that person, you like you're changing the rules, the roles and responsibilities, whatever. You're changing a variable in the employment agreement, right? I hired you to do this, now it's changing, whatever that change looks like. They may not be okay with that.

like and it may be that they have to go somewhere else and and that's okay, but you're doing it in the right way. It's like it's not about you. I'm the one doing the change like you're not the one that changed I changed right that sounds like a bad marriage counseling. But you know most of the time it's not that it then it is it's not that they're not willing to change or accept the change is that like you said they don't understand it. They haven't processed

Gretchen  Schoser (31:51.449)
you

Christian Brim (32:06.625)
their feelings around it. But in my experience, the worst thing that can happen is that someone agrees to it in with their mouth, but they they really haven't agreed with it. Like, I'm going to be a team player. I don't I don't want to do this. I don't agree with it that I'm not going to be the guy that says no. And they and they say, Yeah, sure. Because that's toxic. I mean, those people will never be good at the job.

and they're eventually going to have to leave. mean, like, it's because you've left them no out. They've agreed to something that they don't really agree with.

Gretchen  Schoser (32:46.094)
It's like planting that bad seed, right? And that bad seed, their little roots go out to like other employees and you know, it... The way I think of it is, let's say you have like two 58 year old people out there, right? And you're introducing change. Now this is a company that probably had been working with paper their entire life. And now they're going to move to an electronic system.

Christian Brim (32:49.068)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (32:54.285)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (33:11.98)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (33:15.264)
Okay, yes, they get scared, right? Like, because they've been doing this job for 25 years, and now they feel like the rug is being pulled out from underneath them. But the best thing that has ever happened, and this was the greatest, it made my heart smile, is that these two women, once we turned everything over to the electronic system, you could see the change in their demeanor.

because they were excited, right? Now they get some hours back in their day and they're like, and they apologize for being so like poo poo about it, but they were super excited. And then they took that energy and gave it to like other members of the team. And so by the time we had our last meeting, people were like super excited about this, right? Because they took a process that would take like two or three days.

And now it gets done in like two hours.

Christian Brim (34:12.801)
Right. And acknowledging upfront, like, yeah, I get it change. It's going to be uncomfortable, right? Like you're going to have to learn something new. And that's never fun. But it could be fun. Like you could learn that like, hey, I actually like this better. But you know, we don't know that until you get through it. So let's, you know, acknowledge that this is difficult and support them however you can.

But be very clear that this is what's going to happen. it's not like it, well, you know, it's not going to happen for you. We're going to accommodate you because you don't really want to go along with change. What was it? Some speaker I heard that he calls those people terrorists. The employees that are really productive at what they do, but they're toxic.

And it's like you just accommodate them because they're really good at their job, but they're toxic to the rest of the team.

Gretchen  Schoser (35:21.056)
And, you know, for us as entrepreneurs, you know, we have to have a keen eye to that, right? Like, don't want to, number one, we don't want to lose our contract, right? Number two, we have to have a little bit of empathy for, like, what's going on at that employee level. And three, like, when you're having a meeting with them, I'm going to tell you something that helps. And it may not sound very professional, but have a little laughter.

Christian Brim (35:30.092)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (35:49.103)
during those sessions, because here's what the laughter does, releases that cortisol, Pumps up your serotonin, pumps up your endorphins. So like when your serotonin and endorphins are going, man, you really want to learn, because now you're learning with a smile on your face, right? And so that's how I got a couple of my customers to turn around. Like we would, you know, before we turned on the recording, we get all our giggles and laughs out and, you know, make it personal.

Christian Brim (35:54.24)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (36:03.053)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (36:19.181)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (36:19.47)
Because we're not robots, right? We're humans talking to other humans. And make it relatable. And maybe this is a new customer to you. You know, you can always find something to laugh about. you know, make it an easy conversation. If you make those conversations easy, you're going to get a lot more buy-in. Because if you're, like, down and you're, like, pointing your finger at them and being like, you will do it this way, that's not our job.

Christian Brim (36:25.111)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (36:42.263)
No.

Christian Brim (36:46.103)
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, I mean, and the reality is those people that are coming in with that attitude are experiencing the exact same thing that they're like, this is going to change. And their their threat, and their stress is coming from, well, no one's going to accept it. And and, you know, so that causes you stress. And so you're both in a stressful situation, right? But because you're the boss, you know, well,

okay, yeah, you can go that route, but that long term doesn't work out is, know, I always, you know, I always when I was a kid, I thought, you know, being king would be great, because you get to tell everybody what to do. And I think entrepreneurs kind of get in, you know, at some level, I get to make the decisions I but if I didn't, I didn't understand when I was kid, the King's Court.

you know, the king's court is the one that actually makes all the decisions, you know, they influence the king, they influence others and it's like, the king doesn't make the decisions by themselves, right? And they don't get to just do whatever they want. If those people end up being tyrants and then the court kills them, you know, that's what happens to them, right? Like, we'll get rid of this guy and get someone else in.

Gretchen  Schoser (38:04.11)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (38:09.677)
And that's what happens to you as an entrepreneur. Like if you have that attitude of like, well, this is the way it's going to happen because this is just the way I want it. Your court's going to kill you. It may be probably not literally, but you know, they'll leave. They'll start manipulating things around you to avoid you to, right? And so, you know, this idea that you as an entrepreneur get to have your way, doesn't work that way.

Gretchen  Schoser (38:35.502)
And it never does. You know, you have to, you know, you have to look at it from all different angles, right? You have to look at like top management, like how are they handling this situation? You need to look at middle management, how are they handling it? And then you need to look at the employee level. And that employee level is the most important level. Because if the employees are not happy, I am going to tell you, whatever change you're implementing,

Christian Brim (38:57.697)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (39:03.86)
is not going to go as smoothly as you think it is in your head.

Christian Brim (39:07.853)
Right. It sounded good in paper, you know.

Gretchen  Schoser (39:11.899)
This looked really good in my flowchart, but this is not working.

Christian Brim (39:14.358)
Yeah.

No, no. Yeah, you have to get the engagement. And to your point, it's got to be one on one, and it's got to be personal, it's got to be relatable. Because that's the way the world works. It may seem like it's a wasted effort. But and you know, it's golly, I got to talk to everybody and I got to get there by and yeah, you do. I mean, that's, that's, that's what has to happen.

Gretchen  Schoser (39:41.295)
And keep it simple, Like give like edible chunks. Don't, you know, don't give them a 14 ounce like filet and say, eat all of this right now. No, give them baby chunks. And like when you're giving them homework, give them little bits of homework. Don't just like pile it on because I will tell you, nine times out of 10, this project that you're working on with them is not the only thing they're working on every day. They have a day job.

In some cases, their moms, their dads, they may have something going on. Approach it with kindness. Don't be a jerk, because that is the number one way to get kicked off this contract and to get killed. Nobody wants to get killed, because as an entrepreneur, you still need to put food on the table. You still have bills to pay. Approach it.

Christian Brim (40:14.646)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (40:26.412)
to get killed. that's a, yes, that's a, no.

Gretchen  Schoser (40:40.812)
with a little joy because you're out there making a difference. And like in most cases, we are subject matter experts in our field. Yeah, approach that with like, I know what I'm talking about. But hey, if you have another idea of like how you want to approach this, always listen to the customer. They're not always right, but at least listen to them.

Christian Brim (40:45.579)
Yes.

Christian Brim (41:03.126)
Sure. Well, and I would say, you know, as an entrepreneur, I tend to over complicate things. And so like when I'm going to explain something to an employee, I want to give them my perspective, like the big picture and what all the impact this changes and like, they don't need to know that you're just confusing them. Just focus on it from their standpoint, like their viewpoint, like this is what's going to change.

And let's talk about that. Because they don't need to. I mean, some may want to and that's great. But like most of them, they're not you. like they're not, they're not going to ask those questions. That's great, Christian. Why are you telling me all this? I don't need to know.

Gretchen  Schoser (41:47.893)
It's so funny too. you know, customers, like, here's the best thing you can do as an entrepreneur. Put your customer shoes on. Pretend you are them. Pretend that you are talking to you as a customer. Like, are you making sense? Are you understanding it? Are you, you know, do you have some compassion and some empathy?

Christian Brim (41:58.508)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Gretchen  Schoser (42:14.232)
for what they're going through. And that goes a long way. And showing those traits doesn't make you weak. It makes you human, because we're humans working with humans, not humans working with robots. I mean, if you want to work with robots, just go use ChatGPT. But not all of our customers are technical. Not all of our customers like change. Not all of our customers understand what's happening.

if we humanize that side of it, it makes things so much easier. And occasionally you get a laugh out of them, right? And I can get a laugh. And if you're showing a customer something and you mess up, don't negative self-talk yourself, right? Because the customer's going to hear that. If you're going to do that, do it inside your head. Don't have those words come out of your mouth.

Christian Brim (42:48.097)
Yes.

Christian Brim (42:52.172)
I can get a laugh out of anybody. know.

Christian Brim (43:05.857)
Yes.

Christian Brim (43:11.18)
I'd prefer you not do it at all, but if you're going to, yes, keep it to yourself.

Gretchen  Schoser (43:12.758)
Or if you're going to, just keep it to yourself. But like, have fun with what you're doing. Because nine times out of 10, the reason you became an entrepreneur is because you were tired of what you had before.

Christian Brim (43:27.474)
Mm-hmm, that is correct. Gretchen, how do people find out more about Schozer solutions if they want to know more?

Gretchen  Schoser (43:36.536)
So if you want to find out more, can go out to showsersolutions.com. If you're interested in a console, I give a free 30-minute console. You can book it right there. I'm on all the social media platforms, and I get to love what I do.

Christian Brim (43:55.116)
Perfect listeners will have that link in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. Until next time, remember, you are not alone.