Claire Thompson: What Got You Here Won't Get You There

Summary

In this conversation, Claire Thompson shares her entrepreneurial journey, discussing the challenges and rewards of running multiple businesses in the medical device industry. The discussion delves into the psychological aspects of entrepreneurship, including the addictive nature of problem-solving and the delusional mindset often required to succeed. Claire emphasizes the importance of community, family, and resilience in her journey, while also reflecting on personal growth and self-awareness gained through experience. The conversation highlights the balance between work and personal life, and the necessity of letting go of control to foster growth. In this conversation, the speakers explore the multifaceted journey of entrepreneurship, touching on the importance of community, mental health, personal growth, and the challenges faced by entrepreneurs. They discuss the value of shared experiences, the need for support systems, and the significance of defining success beyond financial metrics. The conversation also delves into personal adventures and aspirations, highlighting the balance between work and life, and the continuous quest for growth and fulfillment.

Takeaways

• Helping friends and family is a primary motivation.
• Delusion can be a necessary trait for entrepreneurs.
• Addiction to ideas and problem-solving is common among entrepreneurs.
• Chasing financial comfort alone can feel empty.
• Resilience is crucial in entrepreneurship.
• Self-awareness grows with experience in business.
• Community and family support are vital for success.
• Letting go of control can lead to new opportunities.
• Fixed costs can be daunting but necessary for growth. Hiring help can be a challenge for entrepreneurs.
• Community provides invaluable support and camaraderie.
• Shared experiences can lead to personal insights.
• Learning from others is crucial for growth.
• Finding alternative communities is important after leaving established ones.
• Mental health is a significant concern for entrepreneurs.
• Work-life balance is a constant struggle for many.
• Adventurous challenges can lead to personal growth.
• Defining success is essential for satisfaction.
• The journey of entrepreneurship is ongoing and evolving.

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Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:00.11)
Well, mean, it'd probably be helping my friends, providing income opportunities for my friends, honestly. And for my family. You know, I think about the daily struggle of the things that we do all day, every day. And my work, my businesses have given me an opportunity to provide a lifestyle for my kids and exposure and opportunities to new ideas and new thoughts. And I'm so grateful for that. that would probably be my greatest rush. I also love it when

surgeon calls and asks a question that I can answer and they go, okay. Yeah, no, that would work. That's a good idea.

This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside, and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Speaker 1 (01:00.492)
This is Christian Brim coming from the Dream Big Studios. I have with me Claire Thompson. Claire, give us the two minute rundown of your business. What do you do?

I have a couple different businesses. Advanced Surgical is a distribution business in the medical device space. provide medical devices, equipment used in surgery, and disposables that are used in surgery. And we also provide service. We sell service contracts to hospitals and have technicians and self-people that support those, our various product lines.

Awesome. Tell me a brief history of your entrepreneurial journey. When did you start? How did you get into it?

Yeah. So I think I was born into it. I definitely have always had the can do, will do, I'll figure it out as I go mentality. I resisted the word entrepreneur many, many years. Felt used car selfish to me. Maybe, yeah, or a lot.

Why?

Speaker 1 (02:07.18)
Little pretentious maybe?

Speaker 1 (02:12.142)
French, it sounds French.

Maybe that was the problem. Yeah, so I resisted it, but I knew that those traits, I knew that if ever I wanted to start a business, I could figure out a way to introduce people to people or people to things and provide value. So when I decided to leave a company that I was with and start my own business.

kind of felt a little awkward at first, but I knew immediately when I started hiring people, I saw value in not just the products we were supplying to hospitals, but also the value it gave to my employees. And that felt good. And I think that is what I grew up hearing. I remember writing my dad's obituary. And one of the things that was important to me to include was that he provided income opportunities to a lot of independent agents across the United States.

And I think that resonates with me too.

Okay, I love that. Yeah, think we, I don't know, I don't know that you forget it, but it usually is secondary when most entrepreneurs think about the impact, they think about the impact on their customer and the marketplace, but not so much on their employees and their families. But definitely, it's part of the equation. Okay, so what study did you choose to discuss today?

Speaker 2 (03:38.062)
Well, gosh, I found both very interesting. Probably the pleasure pain pathway. That was a little more interesting. They both are. But as a mom, I don't think anything trumps my children.

Yes. You noticed that all of the participants in that study were men. Yes. Yes. No reason to do this. No. Okay. So summarizing that article, essentially it talked about the, the dopamine cycle in the brain, the addiction cycle. I clarified with Piche after

They didn't birth those children.

Speaker 1 (04:19.408)
my last interview of what is an addiction and clinically speaking, it's, it's any behavior that's, that's uncontrollable or destructive. All right. So, you know, the dopamine cycle, all kinds of things give us dopamine. Some are good. Some are not. Some are agnostic, but the article goes into discussing how that cycle might affect

entrepreneurs specifically around being addicted to entrepreneurism. All right. So what jumped out from for you in that article?

my first thought went to delusional and You know, I I think to start a business you have to be somewhat delusional you have to buy your own bullshit. Yes All right, and so I think there have been times certainly that I have overlooked challenges and maybe ignored them and and believed so much in the idea or the value prop that I was willing to

Yes, you did. You just did.

Speaker 2 (05:30.146)
take the risk that maybe others that were more thoughtful might not have taken. I think that was where my mind immediately was.

I

Speaker 1 (05:41.346)
Delusional I love that. Yeah, I do the you know, they like to call us visionaries and and some of us like to call ourselves visionaries, but The I think the flip side of that coin is a not based in reality. Absolutely.

Yes, I don't think anybody would start a business if they actually sat down and thought the downside.

Yeah, I think back about when I started my business at the ripe age of 20. I wasn't even 27. I was 26. I had two young children. And I'm like, trying to replicate that thought process in my brain. And it's not there. Like, I don't see, I don't get it. So, no, I think there's definitely a different mindset for most entrepreneurs that goes beyond rational behavior. For sure.

I think there must be something familial too. We must have... Yeah? Yeah, I've thought about that a lot.

A genetic component? Genetic.

Speaker 1 (06:36.588)
I think you may be right. You come from a family of entrepreneurs.

I do. I'm the only one that's ever been employed. And even extended. I mean, I think I can think of maybe two cousins that have been employed. Right. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. think there is a definite family bias. Now, I don't know if that is genetic or if it's just you grow up in it and see it and it's a nurture thing. think, you know, definitely culture plays a role in that. You come from a Lebanese culture, so lots of entrepreneurs in that space. I'm a mutt. I don't know what...

cultural influences I might have had.

There's a great book called Thou Shall Prosper that was written by a rabbi that discusses Jewish principles and how they play into financial success and business success. being Lebanese, we just share a border. But there's real. So a lot of the cultural aspects are probably similar. And in my family, was a lot about that and a lot about providing opportunity for other people too.

Speaker 1 (07:35.566)
Right?

Speaker 2 (07:48.078)
providing for our families. And so if you could look at it from the aspect of that you're doing this, not just for your own good, but you're doing it for your family and your community and your employees. And boy, that feels a lot better.

Yeah, I think if all you ever chased was your own financial comfort, I think it's probably an empty chase. Okay, so back to the study. Delusional, you said, how does that tie into addiction for you?

Hmm. You know, I think about my sugar addiction. It's easy for me to overlook it at times and realize that, you know, not think about the health aspects of my sugar addiction. Right. So I overlook that. I kind of become delusional at times and convince myself that it's okay. Okay. Even though I know in my heart that it's not. So that's how I tied it together.

Well, that's interesting because I don't remember that, I don't know if the author did make that connection and I just missed it, but that is a very intriguing thought because I guess you could say entrepreneurs have an addictive personality. Yes. Usually compulsive, sometimes obsessive, but that extra I'm not living in reality component can definitely contribute to addiction. You know, the author kind of talked about this idea that

people could get addicted to entrepreneur-ism, like the process of it. Does that ring true for you?

Speaker 2 (09:19.95)
Well, it messed. I've owned four businesses and so it messed. Exactly. I think ideas is what I'm addicted to. And then how to bring them to fruition, how to solve problems. And I think that's what I'm addicted to. I to be a resource. want to be a problem solver.

Four.

Speaker 1 (09:42.872)
Yeah, and you can't turn that off. I hate it when I encounter anything and I'm like, this is stupid, we could fix this.

Yes, and it's 24-7.

Yeah. it's, it's, and, and like, especially with my wife, when she wants to tell me about her situation and I'm like, I'm on it. I already got the, and it's like, no, I don't want a solution. I just want you to listen. Right. But you can't turn that part of your brain off. You're just constantly.

We cannot. Yeah.

What do you think? So you talked about being addicted to ideas maybe so so I think the thing that I struggled with with this the paper was I couldn't really tie in the dopamine addiction pathway to a lot of entrepreneurial things, right? So There are a lot of very uncomfortable

Speaker 1 (10:44.802)
things about being an entrepreneur, right? And I don't think the dopamine addiction cycle applies to any of those things. So like, you know, I don't want to work 70 hours a week, but sometimes you got to, right? But that's not pleasurable. It doesn't give me dopamine. doesn't, it's not like getting hooked on sugar or heroin or whatever, right?

So the dopamine to me would be being a resource and providing a solution. It feels really good. Clearly I like to be needed. And so I think it feeds that for me. It feeds my need to be a resource, to be needed, to provide a solution.

So do you, you know, again, this conversation is about layman's understanding of psychological or psychiatric studies. we don't know the answers to these questions, but I'm going to ask you anyway, knowing full well that neither one of us know the answer to this. But do you feel like you get the same rush, physical rush, from

Sugar say as you being a resource, someone calls you and you are able to answer their question.

I think it's greater. think being a resource is a greater rush for me personally.

Speaker 1 (12:08.588)
Yeah, I would agree with that in my experience like that. know the dopamine cycle because we all eat and that's a dopamine release and it's not the same to me as the satisfactions that I've received as an entrepreneur. I guess I would say that I don't...

I don't know that the author was not an entrepreneur, but I'm just guessing he wasn't an entrepreneur in writing this. And so he's kind of like looking at these two pieces and saying, can you fit them together? And I guess my answer would be, don't, I don't really think so. Unless it's, you know, you've heard about serial entrepreneurs, people that just have to start a business and the rush of an excitement of something new.

Right, right.

Speaker 2 (13:07.404)
Yeah, I definitely, the newness is definitely important to me. I think that for me, it's not about starting a business, it's about solving a problem. you know, several times it's been a problem that I personally have had or my business has had, so I just figure out a way to solve that problem and that creates a new opportunity. Right. So I think that that is definitely true. But you know what just popped into my head as you were talking is kind of like a new relationship or

or an old relationship, you know, when you are needed or desired or, you know, your partner comes to you and has a need that you can fix, there's a dopamine rush there too. It's very similar. Okay. Yeah, wow.

That's an interesting connect. I'm going to have to bring Stephen here and put him on the third microphone, see what he has to say about that.

I'm sure he would have thoughts.

I'm sure and they would not be our thoughts. So in your experience as an entrepreneur, how has this potentially this rush addiction, whatever, let's not say addiction, this feeling, this positive feeling been detrimental, not worked in your favor?

Speaker 2 (14:03.938)
they would not be, out.

Speaker 2 (14:30.156)
Yeah, I think our working hours, you know, I think I also feel like I need to do it all and fill a lot of roles that I probably don't need to fill anymore. But I get a rush from some of those. Right. So I'm addicted to showing up for those too. Right. I think that's detrimental. get, you know, you get stuck on an idea too that can be detrimental. One of the, movie that I loved and it's called Flash of Genius with Greg Kinnear. I haven't seen it. It's like, I don't know.

2010 ish, maybe a little earlier. He was a professor and he invented the intermittent windshield wiper. Totally. He watched his wife's blender and that's what made him think, oh, wait a minute, there are different speeds on that. so he mentioned it to somebody, he lived in Detroit. They mentioned it to somebody with one of the big three car manufacturers and they...

very critical piece of technology.

Speaker 2 (15:24.11)
He says they took the idea from him. spent years going through the court system, the legal system, and he lost his family because of it. But he was so focused on winning that battle, proving that he wanted credit for it, for that design. wanted financial credit, but he also wanted the world to know he was the who invented that. And so he was willing to take it all the way, I think, to the state Supreme Court, or maybe it was the US Supreme Court, I don't remember.

He eventually, I don't want to ruin the movie for you, Yep. Okay. All right. So he, he did win the battle, but in the process he lost all that time and resources, you know, with his family and wasn't able to support them financially during that period of time. And it was yours. Yeah.

spoiler spoiler alert okay go ahead

Speaker 1 (16:12.694)
Now, I can totally relate to that, not really on a, not to that extreme in my personal experience, but definitely I can see where the passion, the obsession, the compulsion of the business can have negative effects on your other relationships, for sure. Absolutely. Where did this feeling?

give you greatest joy.

the dopamine feeling, problem solving that.

So what was your greatest win in that? I don't know, like think back, what's like the way in the eye? You kinda replayed that highlight reel and say, yeah, that one was a good one.

example of it.

Speaker 2 (17:07.534)
Well, I mean, probably be helping my friends, providing income opportunities for my friends, honestly. And for my family. I think about the daily struggle of the things that we do all day, every day. And my work, my businesses have given me an opportunity to provide a lifestyle for my kids and exposure and opportunities to new ideas and new thoughts. And I'm so grateful for that. that would probably be my greatest rush. I also love it when...

surgeon calls and asks a question that I can answer and they go, okay. Yeah, no, that would work. That's a good idea.

Yeah, so to clarify the brain surgeons call you, right? It's not like brain surgery. It's higher than brain surgery, right? That's what level we're talking about.

Actually, yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:53.432)
So very slim slice. For application. absolutely.

narrow

Okay, so I'm gonna switch gears here and ask just some more general questions about this mental, I don't wanna say it like mental health, self-awareness, mindset. Tell us a little bit about that journey for you as an entrepreneur.

Well, you know, for many years there wasn't a lot of me time. So that's difficult. You know, every month I have to figure out, how am going to make payroll, you know, because that was always the priority in the beginning for sure. so, you know, that's an added level of stress and I employ some of my closest friends. so I worry about them a lot too. So that adds another complexity.

to my business, but I also trust them and they've been with me for many years, so that's worked out well for me. So I think the pressure I apply to myself is great. I think was taught, know, resilience seems to be a trait that's really needed in entrepreneurship. that was something that we talked a lot about as a family growing up and just, you know, bootstrapping it.

Speaker 2 (19:19.682)
So I definitely have that in me.

Well, so, okay, so let me ask you a question. Did you ever reach a point where you realized that resilience was not working for you? Like, that was not sufficient?

Well, when I ruminate over something that's not working, I have to stop myself and realize that why I'm doing this and I'm doing it for a bigger picture and not just income, although it's been wonderful that way too. But I think that I have to remind myself and I go back to that book that I mentioned.

You know, it's you're doing it for something greater than yourself and your your personal income you're doing it for for other people and providing You know a resource and real value to your customers to your employees to your community and I think that helps me Okay grounds me back to You know, whatever I was worried about seems minute at that point. Let me let me not what you Please do

Yeah, I'm going to rephrase the question. Okay, so how are you different than when you started from a self-awareness standpoint?

Speaker 2 (20:34.842)
okay. Well, I'm more confident. So starting another business would not scare me quite as much. Definitely gain confidence. I think I'm more aware of the value I can bring. I'm also acutely aware, more aware of the downside, so I wouldn't be quite as delusional probably in a new venture. But I'd want to spend more time with the CPA like you.

Yeah, you know, I was thinking my, my, I started my flight training to, obtain my private pilot's license at age 52. And, I remember after that very first flight, trying to decide whether I wanted to do it, kind of pausing and thinking, whereas in the

and the younger me wouldn't have, because I knew how much work it was gonna be. I, know, in the past, I would jump into things without really giving a lot of thought or even knowing like, shit, this is a lot more than I thought it was gonna be, right? And so I have that awareness now of being more, I don't wanna say cautious, but

just really thinking through, this what I want to do?

Absolutely. Yeah, that's definitely true for me, too. And now I realize the preparation it takes and I actually try to prepare a little bit. Where in the beginning there was none of that. It was figured out as you go and fly by the seat of your pants.

Speaker 1 (22:19.128)
Well, continuing the flying analogy, I remember about three quarters of the way through my flight training, I was on a cross country by myself and hit turbulence. And I literally was saying to myself, get me the fuck off of this plane. Like I want out. And saying to myself, I'm going to get this down. I'm never going to fly again. And what happened?

Right.

Speaker 1 (22:48.718)
I couldn't quit. And even though I knew in that moment that I probably would not continue flying, I had to finish what I started, right? And I think that's just mad, crazy behavior, right? The way it showed up for me in my business was I had been in charge of marketing

in our company for several years, only by default because no one else knew how to do anything and I knew just a little bit, right? And so, you know, we tried third-party vendors and agencies and just really struggled with that. And it got to the point where I was like just super stressed because I couldn't figure that problem out. I couldn't figure the problem out, but I couldn't let it go.

right.

And it's like the ropes burn in your skin, but you can't let go. And so it was like, no, I finally had had enough of feeling that way. I'm like, I don't know what the alternative is, but it's gotta be better than this. Fortunately, I say fortunately, in that year, this is last year, we had the worst marketing performance

Huh, in there.

Speaker 1 (24:17.152)
I'd ever had, like we spent more money than we ever had and got less results from it. So it was kind of like God was saying, I have to beat you over the head to let go of this damn rope, right? But I was at a point where not only was I miserable, I was also like, it's not working, dude. I mean, you've got to let go. Have you had any similar experiences around your tenacity?

absolutely. Yes. Mine have been, you know, trying to manage the service side of our business as well as the marketing side. And I, you know, I can't do it all. And... You can? No. Shocking. It turns out, no, I There's just one of you. I can climb Kilimanjaro though. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. The... Trying to be in, you know, several different markets simultaneously just doesn't really work. you know, thought about...

You're so mean.

Speaker 2 (25:14.574)
is cloning a possibility but yeah maybe maybe but so you know hired more people and and you know I always cringe a little bit when I add fixed costs but which technicians are but you know our sales people are marketing people are you commission-based that you know it's easier to hire there yes fixed cost but yeah and hired their hired tech support people

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:43.458)
technicians and that's turned out to be, you know, another revenue stream that's actually going to benefit us.

Speaker 1 (25:52.814)
Chris Project is sponsored by the Rup Group Coaching and Consulting. If you are interested in implementing some of these suggestions that you've been hearing about, or in general, you feel like there's parts of your mental game, or actually your implementation strategy that you feel is lacking, and you love the opportunity to actually start to build yourself into the person that can create the success that you're looking for, please reach out vis-a-vis the link in the show notes to grab a free

consultation with us to see if we can help elevate your mental or your business game. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (26:30.26)
Why, well, I'm gonna assume something in this question, but why did it take you so long to get to that point to hire them? Okay, even though you know the laws of physics say you can't be in two places at the same time.

I I could do it.

Speaker 2 (26:44.206)
True. I just thought there were enough hours in the day that I could do all of that and, you know, get home and fry it up in the pan. Yes, exactly. can see why it went there.

going back to delusion.

Yeah. My track. get it. So you were a member of Entrepreneurs' Organization for several years. Were in my forum. Reflecting back on that, how did that experience, either forum or EO in general, affect your mindset, self-awareness, mental health?

Positive, negative, know, whatever.

Well, you know, I guess misery loves company. Yes. know, spending time with and, you know, sharing ideas and thoughts with other entrepreneurs, business owners who had similar issues, you know, always is comforting. So I guess I would say that what EO brought to me was the camaraderie of my forum. Mostly I didn't, as you know, participate.

Speaker 2 (27:53.166)
Very well in the bigger picture, but I think that that's really what it brought to me and inspiring stories too. There were some inspiring stories that you know kind of made me think okay. What what more could I do here?

I remember maintaining all confidentiality. I remember a couple of moments that you had specifically and that I experienced where someone's telling you their experience and their story and you're like, I had never really thought about that. You make this connection between their experience and yours even though we're not talking about our problems.

That to me was when it was really powerful.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's invaluable.

Yeah. You want to elaborate on that?

Speaker 2 (28:47.854)
Well, you know, what comes to mind is a lot of the personal things, you know, that people would bring personal concerns to the table. And some of those, you know, were very relatable for me. Sometimes, you know, relationships, your significant relationship with your spouse or significant other in my world. And, you know, what they understand and don't understand about being an entrepreneur and the pressures that we face.

Yes. Those were, know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. get that. Yeah.

Was there a time when it wasn't like, okay, yeah, you and I are sharing the same boat here, we're going through the same experience, but like, to use a really bad analogy, you saw how someone else was using the oar and you said, I hadn't thought about holding it here or trying that. Any insights like that?

That's a great question. know, some of the, I have to really think about that, mostly using other people, you know, being willing to give up some of the control and sharing responsibilities, especially for people that I visit with, not just EO, but outside people that have partners because I haven't, well, I have a partner in my insurance business, my brother, you know, leaning on them more, I think it was something that, you know,

we talked to about Neo and other places and I thought I've got to really start working on that more and everybody really defined roles better than I have in the past. Right. I had no training. So kind of that EOS design would have been more helpful for me.

Speaker 1 (30:30.606)
None of us did.

Speaker 1 (30:39.566)
You're talking about entrepreneurial operating system, right? yeah, like you're talking about hiring people. I haven't been trained in hiring people. I don't know a damn thing about it. I can think of a lot of mistakes I made over the years doing it wrong. But yeah, I mean, like you said, the entrepreneur doesn't have a formal education that an MBA does or all of these.

Tactical things that go on in a business marketing finance, you know HR. Yeah

Self-employment tax was one of the first things that I mean, my first year in, I didn't know that I needed to be an S-corp. Right. And so, you know, an attorney set it up for me and we set it up as an LLC because that's what you do. Quite a bit. A significant amount of money. Not six, but high fives. Painful. Yeah, enough that it got my attention. We were an S-corp the next year.

How much did that cost?

Speaker 1 (31:30.872)
talking six figures and

Speaker 1 (31:40.962)
Yeah, I I think the the thing for me is that that community aspect is You know having a know, yo for me, but like every entrepreneur needs a community because there's We're so few and far between like if you take your circle of everybody, you know, you know, there aren't a lot of entrepreneurs, right and

you, as we've discussed in this brief conversation, we think differently, right? And you can't go and say those things to your spouse because they're probably not an entrepreneur. And if at best you're going to get a blank stare, at worst you're going to make them more anxious, right? Like, you know, you can't talk to your employees. know, your friends in your social circles are like talking about

dancing with the stars and you're like, I got nothing. Yeah, I got nothing. Yeah. Yeah. So how have you found an alternative community since you left EO?

Yes, well, I have some very close friends who are mostly men, ironically. Some of them are business owners. One of my closest friends is a serial entrepreneur.

Like post-toasties frosted flake.

Speaker 2 (33:05.838)
I'm from the Long Island. He is and he calls me his little sister, is kind of, you know, about how Patronizing? Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

our owners of businesses also. They don't really run them, but they started hospitals and MRI centers and different things. So they've been a great resource too, throughout my journey. then, yeah, so mostly those people I talk to my brother a lot too. And I still keep up with you and with Matt Davis and a few people that are helpful also.

Yeah, think thinking about the mental health aspect of it, I think one of the biggest challenges for me over the years is getting it out of my head. Just talking about it, that sounds squirrely, but I think you could go to a professional counselor, but they're not an entrepreneur.

And they're going to look at you like you're worried about what?

Right? You know, it's so interesting. I have this very close, tight-knit group of friends that we were pledged sisters from OU, and they're 18 on a group text all day every day. And when we gather, our conversations are so different because almost all of my conversations socially at work are all business related or personal issues. I don't really talk about Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift. That's just not part of my everyday life.

Speaker 2 (35:01.932)
But boy, when I get together with that group of girls, it's amazing. One of them sent a video around the other day of Bosworth describing when Barry Switzer came and recruited him to his high school. And it's just so fun to get outside of the entrepreneurial mindset too, because I spent all my time there. And growing up, I did as well. was just what our family dinners were all about ideas and problem solving and business.

Yes, I wrote about that in my book about how, you know, I similarly was in a family business and the part about it I loved was that there was this connectedness that everybody had and the time that everybody spent together. But the downside was that there was no line, there was no boundary. It was just...

No boundaries.

Your personal problems follow you to work and your work problems follow you home. And of course I was a kid, but you still pick up on it and like you kind of understand that like it's a weird dynamic.

That's actually, I think, the greatest downside of being an entrepreneur is that there's no off switch, ever.

Speaker 1 (36:17.358)
Well, I think there isn't naturally. think I've had to intentionally put those speed bumps in place, you know? I just got back from Phoenix. I went to go visit my friend from one of my pledge brothers that was actually in my wedding, and he left Oklahoma City about 10 years ago.

And I went out there and spent time with he and his wife and his two teenage daughters and we played a phase 10 and skip bow and yeah. And I mean, it was, it, was very refreshing. he's not an entrepreneur, but he's a business person. So we had, we had things to talk about like that, that we, didn't spend most of our time talking about that. We, talked about family and we talked about God and faith and

You know, it just, it was, it was a different level conversation, but it was intentional. And I'll be honest, the only reason I went was my wife was going to be out of town and I was like, well, I don't want to sit at home by myself. So I, know, but I kind of made that decision that now whenever she's gone somewhere, I'm going somewhere just to, you know, do something different.

refreshing.

Speaker 2 (37:38.05)
bet it filled your cup. I bet it was.

It really, it was three days and it was, you know, it, it was novel, which that also intrigues me. Going, going new places and seeing new things and eating new things and talking to new people.

conversations. Yeah. Energizing. my gosh. was set out to during 2020, I just started, I could not go into operating rooms. So I couldn't be the one in surgery all the time. So I just didn't know what to do with myself. So one day I went for a walk and I came back and I'd looked down and I'd gone 10 miles and I did it again the next day and the next day. So was doing 10 miles a day, five days a week.

Tell me about Kilimanjaro.

Speaker 2 (38:21.486)
for months and I decided to do the Grand Canyon with a friend who I also work with and one of my dear friends and we did the Grand Canyon in a day, the rim to rim and that,

Which is an awful name, but that's a different story. I need to rebrand that.

We do need rebranding on that one. But it sure is a fun challenge. Yes. So I decided I needed more challenges.

How much elevation change on the Grand Canyon?

I think that, you know, I'm not going to get this right, but the upside I think is like 5,500 maybe. you you have to go down first before you can up. it's a very challenging route. We did North Kaibab Trail to Bright Angel Trail and it was, our GPS devices said 27 miles. We did two little side hikes, one to Ribbon Falls and another. And so it said 27 miles.

Speaker 1 (39:13.314)
Okay, so let's contrast that. you accomplished that. Now you say, gotta do something.

Yeah, so now I've got it in my, you know, I got to go do these things now. So I've got a list. Kilmajaro, we did six weeks ago and there were four women from Oklahoma, 16 of us total. And we did five and half days. We did the Moshame route and it was five and a half days up and two and a half, or a day and a half down.

So Kelly.

Speaker 1 (39:38.294)
So what elevation change was that?

5,500 to 19,341. Ooh. Yeah. And how many miles? Yeah. You know, I have not added up the miles because you go up and down the way they acclimatize you. Like the first night we spent the night at 9,000 feet. And the second day, I think we went up to 13 or 14 and spent the night at 12. The next day we went up to 15 and spent the night at 13. So you're going up and down to acclimatize. And then the last night before the summit, which we got to that camp at 16,000 feet at like

I don't know, three in the afternoon or four, I don't know, and had dinner and visited them. We went to bed about eight and they got us up at 11 p.m. and we left to summit at midnight. And we summited before daybreak. We actually made really good time and summited before daybreak and did not have any problems breathing, but no. There were a couple people, yes, we all had some sort of issue, but nothing, no, we all summited, we all.

Nobody got altitude signal.

Speaker 1 (40:36.258)
And so, you're next.

Yeah, I don't know if it'll be my next, but I've got several on the list. I read a book called Beneath a Scarlet Sky during COVID also, and I mapped out some of the escape routes for people that were leaving Italy trying to get to Switzerland during World War II. there are huts that the Allied forces built in the Dolomites, and I kind of want to do that hut hike. That sounds cool. Yeah, pretty cool. And then Machu Picchu is high on the list and the Rainbow Mountain, which is in Peru also. And then I want to do Mont Blanc.

Any chance Steve will go with you on it?

I'm trying to get him to, he is kind of interested. He has not read the book, but he is interested in the head to head hike. And he did say the other day, the mom block is interesting to him. He's not interested in Machu Picchu for some reason, but both my kids are.

is he interested in putting in the training?

Speaker 2 (41:27.564)
That's the big question mark. I did buy him a Peloton for Christmas. So I'm trying to encourage that a little more. So we'll see.

My brother Nathan, he went earlier last year. No, last year. Yeah, it was last year. And he'd trained for many months and lost a lot of weight and was so excited and he got altitude sickness and couldn't finish the summit.

Come on, Charlie.

Speaker 2 (41:53.72)
Wow. Well, I wonder if he took Diamox. Do you happen to I don't know. Yeah, that is key to Kilimanjaro.

Well, I asked him, said, don't they give you oxygen? He goes, yeah, you can get oxygen, but then they make you go down. You can't go any further up. so he endured it for like a day, vomiting, diarrhea, headaches. And I'm like, uh-uh.

Yeah, no, that sounds miserable. There were like three people, maybe four on our trip that were not well, and none of them had taken Diamox, but the rest of us all had. So they started taking it then. I think we were 15,000 feet maybe, or a little higher then. But the minute that as soon as they started taking it and it got in their system, they were fine. It deals with, I'm not exactly sure, but... We're not scientists here. Yeah.

don't even know what is Diamonx.

Speaker 2 (42:40.11)
We're not scientists. They use it in neurosurgery. They use it in ophthalmic surgery. It reduces the pressure, your intercranial pressure. And I don't know exactly how it works. And it does work. But there are side effects. So you get tingling in your hands and your feet. And it comes on like kind of a sharp tingle. And it comes on and then goes away pretty quick for me anyway. But some other people had other issues. thought maybe it made them nauseous. But I don't know. I didn't have that problem. I will take it if I go above.

14,000 ever again. Uh huh. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, elevation is no joke. People don't really, but anytime you go up into the mountains, you're to go ski or whatever. It doesn't take very long to get shorter.

No, it does not. But I do think a lot of that though plays into that psychological, the dopamine rush that, you know, I liked the challenges and I like overcoming the challenge. And so I think this plays a role. I took the kids and ran with the bulls in 2016 in Pamplona, Spain, but I take calculated risks. I go in and I look down and so I might not be as delusional as I once was.

You know, we rented a balcony at the Running with the Bulls one year and we watched to see how you can do it without having real risk. And so we did it that way. We can still say we ran with the Bulls, but we...

Speaker 1 (44:02.926)
How close was the bowl?

The was not close until we got into the arena. Okay. And then my boys were close to the bowl in the arena, probably 10, 15 feet away from the bowl.

They've got too much testosterone, so they don't know any better.

Definitely. Any other thoughts on this topic, either the study or mental health mindset, self-awareness in general?

Yeah, I think I read a great quote about shame the other day and you know, I think when things don't go exactly like we've convinced ourselves they might, it can be really upsetting. We can feel shame, especially if you have to let employees go or downsize or there's a lot of shame involved in that. And I think talking about it, having a group that you can share those thoughts and feelings with is super important. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:00.066)
Yes. It's again, it's, I think, and this just makes sense that because there are so few of us in the population and we don't always do a good job of connecting with each other, it can be very lonely being an entrepreneur and just being able to express those thoughts and those feelings and have someone say, I totally understand.

You know, I mean, when someone passes away, you've got everybody, you know, friends and family that you can talk to about your grief, but that's not always the case with entrepreneurs and the intense emotions that they have. Shame, fear, anxiety, dread, you know.

Thanks

Speaker 2 (45:54.05)
Right. Yeah. And mixed emotions about happy times too. I mean, it's fascinating how.

Guilt? Guilt. A lot of entrepreneurs struggle with that. Like, I'm making too much money. should, I I don't deserve this.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:08.524)
Right. That's challenging. Yeah. huh. And you don't have anybody you can talk to about that. Yeah.

No, because you know, I feel really bad that I made this much money and I had to go on this trip or buy this car. I feel awful. No one wants to.

It's interesting how many entrepreneurs downplay.

Yes, and then the few that overplay. Yeah, I think, you know, I said this before, I think one of the biggest challenges for me as an entrepreneur is I never really quantified success financially. And that's a whole nother topic and a whole nother story as to why, but...

A lot of that too.

Speaker 1 (46:58.582)
The problem with it is if you don't quantify it, like put a number to it, you never reach it and therefore you're never satisfied with what you've done. And as entrepreneurs, there's always someone that is making more money, has a bigger company, has more employees, know, growing faster, whatever. And it can really set you up in a bad head space if you're like comparing, you're always comparing yourself to

somebody else because you don't have a real clear idea of what success looks like to you.

Right, right. I did start early on trying to figure out what my need would be, exit strategy need. And so I've kind of had, you know, some numbers in my mind. They've evolved, but that's been something I've focused on for a long time. And, you know, now that I'm 55 now and thinking, you know, okay, what's the next act? Because I cannot sit still.

So, you know, at some point in the future, I'm going to want to exit this business, advanced surgical, not the insurance business. And when that happens, you know, I've wondered, you know, what does it look like next?

Yeah. And I, I, uh, I was just introduced to a book yesterday. I have not read it. It's called the second mountain and, it's essentially like the first mountain in our lives is the, uh, worldly one, the professional, the financial, the, you know, whatever that is. But then after we've either succeeded or failed at climbing that mountain, um, there's this.

Speaker 1 (48:44.32)
second mountain that's more altruistic, more meaningful. So, you know, I think that's one of the beautiful things is that if you're successful as an entrepreneur and you do it the right way, you can have that to give you the capacity to go to the next mountain, right? To say, okay, I can start with a blank slate and what do I really want?

What do I really want to do? Because I don't have to make the money. I don't need the alcholades. I don't need the self-esteem. do I want to do?

Right.

Speaker 2 (49:23.47)
Yeah, yeah, we're lucky. Yes. And we took the risk that got us here. Yes. So I'm grateful for that. yeah. So I think, you know, right now it's hiking for me and hopefully at some point in the future it'll be grandchildren and, know, I sure hope so. Sorry, boys.

that'll be here before you know it.

Speaker 1 (49:43.022)
They're not gonna listen to this.

Speaker 2 (49:47.992)
Thank you for listening to The Chris Project. You are important. Your work is important. Do not give up.