Carol Kabaale: Lessons Learned from Partnerships

Summary

In this episode of The Chris Project, host Christian Brim speaks with Carol Kabaale, a South African entrepreneur who shares her journey of starting a Facebook ads agency just before the COVID pandemic. Carol discusses the challenges of entrepreneurship, including the importance of community, the struggle with boundaries, and the lessons learned from business partnerships. She reflects on the difficulties of starting over after a partnership ends and the personal growth that comes from rebuilding. The conversation also touches on the significance of grace in relationships, both personal and professional, and the necessity of fighting for what you want in life.

Takeaways

• Carol started her agency just before COVID, which was a pivotal moment.
• The entrepreneurial environment in South Africa is challenging due to limited resources.
• Community is crucial for entrepreneurs to avoid loneliness.
• Setting boundaries is essential to prevent burnout.
• Business partnerships can be tricky and require clear agreements.
• Rebuilding after a partnership can lead to personal growth and new opportunities.
• Finding confidence again after setbacks is a journey.
• Grace is vital in maintaining long-term relationships.
• Both partners in a relationship or business must be committed to making it work.
• Starting over can be daunting but also a chance for a fresh start.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:00.374)
And to me, that meant when I got entrepreneurship to always go above and beyond the scope, which ended up actually burning me out because I had too many responsibilities and I was trying to over-deliver, but I had no time to do it in. And it was just terrible. So that's like the first challenge that I faced, like having clear boundaries and being able to tell people like, Hey, that's a great idea, but we cannot work on it right now.

We can do this instead. This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside, and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Christian Brim (00:53.824)
Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is Carol Kabale. Carol, welcome. Hi, Christian. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today. Well, I'm excited to have you. So that makes two of us. Tell the listeners who you are, how you got here. That's a fun one. Yes. So.

Who I am is Carol Gubale. I am currently living in South Africa. I have a Facebook ads agency. I am also a wife. I am a fur mom to Boston Terrier. His name is Charlie. I love him. I love pizza, carbs, like pizza. I like wine. And I got here because, you know, the algorithms wanted Christian and I to meet. And today I get to spend some time with them. So it's going to be fun.

So talk a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey. How long have you had your agency? So I started my agency at the best time, just before COVID. Yes. I think that was 2019 I started my agency and we've been going ever since. So that's what five years now? Yeah, five years. Was that your first business adventure? It actually was. I actually did, I'm like a very text.

tick the box kind of person. So I went to university, I got my degree, I did my honors, I went and got a corporate job and I worked in hospitality management for a while and did business development there and I really enjoyed it. I was like a corporate girly. I was out there living my best life. And then I realized, mm-mm, this is not for me. It's not for me. And the reason I realized that is because I was burnt out and I was living past my husband and he wasn't my husband at the time. He was still like,

my fiance and I was living past them and I was like, I can't do this. So I thought, what else could I do? And one thing I truly, truly loved was the marketing side of the business development that I did. And with that, I decided, okay, well, what else can I do? And the Facebook ads really called to me because it was data driven and it was not just hoping that it's going to work, you know, which I think some social media aspects are like that.

Christian Brim (03:16.194)
And that's how I started my first business. I'm the first one in my family actually to have a business, which is very scary because everybody's like, what are you doing? This is not what we sent you to university for, but it's been fun. It's been, yeah, it's, been a journey. It's been a journey. So I'm curious, how would you describe the entrepreneurial environment there in South Africa? I think it's all Africa. It's very difficult. A lot of people don't have enough resources, don't have enough funding to start. So,

I'm very blessed to be in this position. I'm also very blessed that most of my clients are based outside of South Africa. So I get to have a little bit more of an income. yeah, I would say like entrepreneurship is hard, especially because you don't have like mentors or people around you who have done it before. So if you do decide to go down this road, especially here, I find that like you're walking alone until you suddenly find other people. Yes.

That's one of the themes that I think is very important is community because entrepreneurship can be a very lonely journey. I know for myself, been most impactful on my entrepreneurial journey is my membership in Entrepreneurs Organization, which is a global organization of entrepreneurs. And, you know, I think entrepreneurs think differently and

It's something that I couldn't like go to my wife and have discussions. You know, most of my friends were not entrepreneurs. And so it's like, where do you go with those questions and not getting trapped inside your own head? So tell me a little bit about your entrepreneurial community. For me, because I started in 2019, I had a lot of

online community and I felt that some of my best friends that I have today actually come from an online background, which is really, really cool. I've met a lot of them in Facebook groups or masterminds that I've been a part of or coaching programs. And you know, you get some hits and some misses with some people, you get some people who are like great and you're like, yay, these are my people. And then you get some people who are like, my gosh, I hope our paths never ever cross. So.

Christian Brim (05:40.27)
I agree when you say it can be very lonely. There's been days where it's like just myself and a screen and someone like yourself on the other side. And you're like, my gosh, I haven't seen someone like a real person in so long. And you just like wonder like, wow, this is weird. Like some, you have to go outside and socialize with people, but I'm so used to doing it this way that it's like you forget, you sort of forget. And your mind, because you're a business owner is constantly thinking of.

improving your business, especially in the beginning for me, like that was very crazy. I didn't know anything. I was learning and implementing. that doesn't sound great. No, I'm sorry. no. I just felt like in the beginning, for real, I was always learning, implementing, learning, implementing, implementing. And that can be exhausting, really, because you're like, once you fix one thing, you're like, sure, but I need to fix something else. That's not going to be great. Yes.

I would say probably some of it is of our own making, but there is always something more to do in entrepreneurship. My wife, remember several years ago said, well, when is it going to be enough? Like, when are you going to stop doing new things? And I'm like, did Rembrandt stop painting? Did Mozart stop composing? You know, it's who we are. And

it doesn't stop. think it can be frustrating at times because I go into a business like a restaurant and I'm constantly evaluating like I would do this this way or I would do this differently or I like the way they do that, you know, and you just can't turn your brain off. It's just part of who you are. Yeah, I 100 % agree with that. There's like no business that I go into. For example, today I ordered something and this person is a small business owner.

they don't have a website. So the whole transaction took place via chat. And I was like, you could have automated this. You could have created a form. You could have done like a very simple, and I, my brain is like ticking, but I'm like, done is better than perfect. I had, I always have to remind myself done is better than perfect. This person is getting it done. It's working for them right now. Could it be optimized? Of course.

Christian Brim (08:01.186)
Do they know that? Maybe not, or maybe yes, but they're like, I don't have the time for that. I just need to get it done. You know? Yes. So I appreciate that too. It's always interesting to see. And it's always nice when it's like something you haven't thought about that somebody else does. And you're like, that's nice. I should do that. Yes. That's a great idea. I need to do that. I'm an expert in R and D, which is rip off and deploy. so I, I love seeing how people do things in other businesses, other industries.

Ooh, that'd be interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love how you put that. mean, as soon as you said that, I think I thought a little version of myself when I used to work in hospitality. I remember going to one restaurant and you know, they served the honey in little sachets instead of having like a squeeze bottle. I was like, fascinating. Imagine how much they save on this. And I remember running back to the office and being like, guys, we need to do this. Look at this. This is crazy.

And I just thought it was like, wow, guys, this is amazing. So, and you know, like you said, it never stops until, yeah, I guess until you wanted to stop. Yeah, I don't know how to turn it off. I don't know. I've tried. I was interviewing a gentleman yesterday for the podcast that is 75 and still doing what entrepreneurs do. And so I don't know that that changes, but

In any case, what are some of the challenges that you've experienced in your entrepreneurial journey? How much time do you have? As long as you want. I'm really teasing. I think challenges come up all the time. One of the biggest ones I think I've started with at the beginning was I had a big issue with boundaries. I myself, I've always been raised to be of service.

And I love being of service. And to me, that meant when I got entrepreneurship to always go above and beyond the scope, which ended up actually burning me out because I had too many responsibilities and I was trying to over-deliver, but I had no time to do it in. And it was just terrible. So that's like the first challenge that I faced, like having clear boundaries and being able to tell people like, Hey, that's a great idea.

Christian Brim (10:28.546)
but we cannot work on it right now, we can do this instead. Or, hey, that's a great idea. I'm not the person who can assist you with that. Let me make an introduction and put you in connection with the right person who can assist you and get it done. To me, it felt like I was failing someone by saying no, and I wasn't being of service. And it was like that mind, like that mindset, that feeling that was really hard in the beginning for me to just

be with and overcome. was terrible actually. I didn't like it at all. Do you still struggle with that? Not so much right now because I've changed a bit of my mindset around that. I've actually learned that if I give a client boundaries or a team member boundaries, it's not because I am trying to restrict them. I'm actually trying to help them in my mind. That's how I've shifted it because I can give you, I can now really commit to giving you a hundred percent.

of what I've committed to not giving you 20 % or 30 % really quickly and trying to get onto the next thing, trying to get onto the next thing. I'm a hundred percent focused in what I said I would do and therefore you get the best of me. And I think that's fair for both people receiving it because a client would want me to give them my best. And likewise, I would expect them to, when we work together, try and give me their best so we can make it all work. Yeah. I struggled with that as well.

I especially starting out like and where it led was we were doing a lot of things, but none of them really well. know, even though we were growing, it reached a point because it was not standardized, because it was not

not standardized. There were no SOPs in place. You had no systems to follow. Yes, that as well. And that it was mentally exhausting for me having so many different things that we were trying to do. The business, you know, capped out. It could not go forward. Right. So we actually had to shrink, sell off some of our lines of business, let others just go away.

Christian Brim (12:49.134)
And I remember that period of time over a couple of years where we shrunk like 20, 30 percent. And that really felt like failure. That was difficult. But I knew that if we were going to go past where we were, we had to shrink and refocus. So, yeah, I think a lot of people get into

business because they truly do have a passion or or heart to serve and help people but it can be debilitating. I'm very proud of you for figuring that out so early on in your journey because it took me a while. Thank you. I think it just had to happen. I mean like I say you get over one thing and then you start climbing another mountain.

And it's entrepreneurs just like that. The challenges don't really stop. think the next one that I faced, that was also quite huge was I had built my agency by myself and I was doing quite well. had a little small team of like five women. We were doing great. We were like, yay, lady power. And I met someone who would become my business partner and the two of us really clicked and it was great. And it was all great until it wasn't.

I say this until because, you know, as a child of divorce, I should have known better, but you know, sometimes you just want to like, pretend like it's not going to happen to you. what I mean by that is that like, we were such friends first before we became business partners that we didn't take any of those precautions of like,

you know, having contracts and this and that. just decided like, no, we're friends. Nothing's going to happen. If we have a fight, we're just going to have a conversation and it's going to be fine. And you know what? The reason I said as divorced, as a child of divorced people, when you are in marriage, you're happy and you're like, great. But when you come to the divorce, it's like you want to fight over the loss. Who gets the spoon and who gets the cousin? You want to fight over like trivial things.

Christian Brim (14:59.774)
Yes. And it would have been so nice looking back at that situation to have had, again, some kind of paperwork or things in place. We did manage to figure it out and we did end up, you know, being amicable afterwards. But again, it was another lesson that just made me feel like you just said, like a failure, because I was like, my gosh, I was doing OK by myself. Then I did a little bit better with help. And now everything that I've built is gone.

And I have to start again. So why did you feel that you need that the business partnership was the way to go? What was it that attracted you to that? I was tired of doing it alone. I was tired. I was just like, I need some help. need to have somebody else to make decisions and just have my back, you know.

At the time, it was myself and then I had a small team and I was still the face. So I was like project manager for the team, but also project manager when it came for the clients. So I'm having two sets of people ask me things. I'm also the owner. So therefore I'm also doing sales, which is another little aspect of it. And it's like, it just became like so much and so many decisions that I was like, my gosh, I wish I could just focus on this part of it.

And when that opportunity came, I was like, yes, you know, she really liked doing sales and being like the face of things. And I was like, you want to do that? That's fine. Like I'm, I'm happy to be the face of things, but you want to go do it? Go. You know, I will do internal stuff. I will build SOPs. I will keep client happy. And that's what we did. And it worked, you know, for a while. So what didn't work? Why did the partnership fail?

I think it failed because ultimately we wanted different things as an entrepreneur. For example, she had a very clear goal about a number she wanted to make. And I have a very clear goal about a lifestyle I want to live. And those two things do not align. And there was always friction on how to get to the end goal. Because to reach her number would mean

Christian Brim (17:23.33)
I would have to work more, we'd have to hire more people, we'd have to do more things to reach my goal, which is I want more time freedom so that hopefully one day, if I'm blessed enough, I can have a tiny human and be a mom. That requires me to step away and have systems in place where I can be there, but not be there 100%. So that caused conflict. And then ultimately we just decided, you know what, let's call it quits.

You go your way, I go my way, and it's fine. That's a fascinating insight that you had. I was business partners with my brother for over 10 years. And ultimately, he had the courage to quit the business. And then I subsequently bought his ownership out.

several years, and I mean like at least three before he had decided to leave, I knew something was wrong, even to the point where I had written it down in one of my planning sessions, like, you know, what do I do with Nathan? And the reason why I struggled with that was because I too am a child of divorce.

And my father remarried and subsequently had four more kids. I was the oldest. He's he was my half brother, but we all grew up together and it was just. Yeah. And what I didn't realize was the impact that personal dynamic was having on the business. I was at the end of the day, afraid to lose him as a brother. Right. Yeah.

And therefore, I couldn't make the business decision. And I wrestled with it. He finally quit. I bought him out. Everything's great. Everybody's happy. But I look back on it and I'm like, how much did I limit him and me and the company and and all the employees? Because I didn't have the courage to face that feeling that I had. Yeah.

Christian Brim (19:48.718)
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Christian Brim (20:25.388)
That's actually a really good way of putting it. I think that period in my life was definitely needed because there was a lot of things that I learned in terms of growing, growing quickly, being more direct in business and being more like, let's just do it. Let's just do it and get it done. You know, let's not think about it. Let's take action. And that's something I guess that I needed to learn. But like you say, it reached a point where

I too, I was nodding along when you said it, I too felt like something was wrong and I couldn't quite put my hand on it. Like I couldn't like pinpoint what it was. And I was like, this person feels very distant to me and they feel different. Like we used to talk every single day and we had a very, very close relationship. Like her family and our family actually became very intertwined because we spoke every single day. And it became a thing where it was weird. And I was like, it's never been so weird before.

But it's like really amazing what you've said. Like now that we've gone away, I think we needed to do that because she's done really well for herself and I've done really well for myself. But again, we've done well in what we've both wanted. And again, I don't think that would have been possible had we stayed together because the goals were so polar, like polar opposites that it was never going to happen. Like the hours I was working in that old agency, I could never do it.

I don't know how, like I know moms do incredible things. I just don't know if I could have done those incredible things as a mom with that. Maybe, but I don't think so. I think that that's a great point that the two of you had different end goals and became apparent that Nathan and I had different goals. don't really know what his goal was to be honest with you.

But it wasn't what I wanted. And it was fascinating to me once he was gone and there was more alignment in the business, we didn't have that internal struggle, how quickly the business moved forward. it was like one of the symptoms was we'd have a discussion about an issue, right? And we'd come to some...

Christian Brim (22:50.392)
conclusion to solve it. Yeah. But it would come back up in four weeks or three months and we'd have the same conversation. And I'm like, I thought we already discussed this, right? I thought we already decided, right? Yeah. And I'm just now actually having this insight. I know we're having the same one. I love this for both of us. parallel to that was my wife and I would

have the same conversations and they were always about money. And what I realized after the fact is that the issue wasn't about money. It was something else. And my business coach calls that the conversation behind the conversation, the conversation that's not being happening, where you're having this conversation, but what's the real conversation that you're not not the real conversation. Right. course. Yeah.

No, I totally understand that. And I see that too. I think, you know, one of the things, which is so funny because I like to, every year I like to set a goal for myself and it's like a ever arching goal. So it's not like a one goal and maybe it's better to say a theme, a theme for the year. And that year when actually the partnership ended, I said to her, I want a year of completion. I just want us to complete things.

and move on and complete things and move on. Cause I feel like we're in this loop where as soon as we fix this thing, this acid breaks and this thing fix, and then this one breaks and we're constantly like that snake eating its tail, going round and round. And I was like, I just want completion. Can I please just have completion? We can finish, we can go, we can finish and we can move and like we can keep building. That was my goal.

And it's so funny, the completion that I wanted was actual completion that I got. We completed, like, you know, the partnership ended and therefore I could move forward. So it's making me laugh because I'm thinking about it. Like the theme was very real in our lives, at least for me. And it was very apparent that it was needed. And I think also that helped me with everything that came next.

Christian Brim (25:12.846)
Yeah, it was just really fun. It wasn't fun, it was needed. It wasn't fun, but it was needed. And also I just think like, it was a very low point in my life because I had to start again. And I don't think starting again is ever fun for anybody. you feel like a bit of a disappointment and a failure financially. It wasn't fun because, you know, we were used to a certain amount of income and then that was gone and that vanished. And it was like,

And I was the person who was always doing internal things. So I had shifted my roles and I was more like, you know, doing project management with the clients and the team. So I wasn't doing sales activities. So it actually made me feel weird when I had to start doing that again, when I had to like go online and do a reel and do this. And I felt like everything changed really quickly. Like I felt very old, very quickly. And I know that sounds weird because

Obviously I'm not old, but it felt like when I did marketing or when I started, this is what we did and we followed this formula and we got clients. And then in the two years, two and a half years that we were together, that I was out of it, everything changed. Now it was reels and we're pointing at things and people are dancing and there's TikTok and there's this and there's that. And I was like, whoa, whoa, this is a whole new ball game. What is happening?

So it was very interesting to have to regain my confidence and be able to put myself out there for a long time. I didn't want to, cause I didn't want anybody to know that I failed. I guess that's how I saw it. And then I had to start again. And one of the things that helped me cope with that actually is this office, which is kind of like my passion project. I've never built anything with my hands. I'm not that type of girl. not, I'm a, you know, sit on the beach at an all-inclusive looking at the ocean kind of girl.

You know, I'm not a build things kind of girl, but my therapist actually said to me, Carol, I think you might enjoy it. If you do something like, and you complete it and that it's your own, you'll understand that it's possible to do it. And I didn't get it back then, but what she was trying to tell me was like, if I can do this in the office, if I can like paint the walls and pick this and DIY things, then I could do the same thing for my business. And I one day woke up.

Christian Brim (27:40.75)
And literally, I'm such a planner. I really am. But I just woke up and I said to my husband, I need you to take me to the hardware store. He was like, what? I was like, I need you to take me to the hardware store. Are you well? He's like, are you lost? Are you fine? Like, yes, we're going to go and I'm going to build the office. He's like, where did this idea come from? And I was like, it's coming from where it needs to come. he's very like, he also likes to plan things. So he's like,

So what are you going to do? And I was like, I don't need you to think and give me points. I just need you to support me and help me with stuff that I lack. Like if I like this color, should I pick this paint? Is this the right paint? Are these the right tools? Like that's kind of what I need for me. And then I went and I built my office and in it, I can't, I'm not going to lie to you Christian. There was some tears in this office. There was emotional pain that needed to be released.

And once it was completed, I just felt like really whole and really wholesome. Like I did this without help. Like I didn't ask him to build anything for me. didn't ask him to help me with any power tools, anything. And it might seem so small because I know there's a lot of DIY people out there, but for me, this was huge. And it was just enough that I needed to be like, okay, if I can do this within these four walls, I am safe enough to take

anything on. And that's what I've tried to do ever since. That's a fascinating story. It is weird how what you described to me was a very practical way to deal with something you were feeling and thinking inside your head. Right. And it may on the surface not be meaningful. Like, OK, you have an office painted some walls. Right. Not that cool. But it was hugely impactful.

to you because it proved something. It proved a truth. It really proved that I was capable of doing things. It proved that I could still do it. For me, this was my proof of concept, if you will, that I still had it, that I could still be this person. And little by little, that's how I got out of it. It started with the office, and then I did one little project. I was like, okay.

Christian Brim (30:06.476)
what is one way we're going to focus on? Like, am I still going to do the whole agency? Am I going to focus on one part of the agency? I was like, I get to do this again. And I actually thought about it like, what a blessing. This is like version three. Like, of course it's going to improve. You know, we had version one when I started, version two with the partnership. This is version three. And by far, this is probably my favorite version.

Because this has the best of everything. You know, I don't want to be a little Hannah Montana song here and like show my age, but this is the best of both worlds. It's got everything. It's amazing. That's funny. So, yeah, I think like, you know what? I am a bit of a nostalgic girl. I'm a bit of a nostalgic girl. So it had to come out. It had to come out. But I also feel like these now that I've rebuilt it like this, I've taken what I think is the best parts of it.

I only focus on ads, for example, and I only work with one niche, for example. That's also, like you said, has really streamlined my processes to the point that I can kind of understand there's very little customization so that it can be taken over by somebody else. So that if I am not around for any reason, just follow the SOP. We'll be fine. Little room for error there.

I have one final comment on the partnerships. My lawyer, who is a friend of mine, not lifelong, but pretty close, he said partnerships are like marriage without the sex. I'm like, hmm. Yeah, that's a pretty good statement, right? That's a pretty good statement. Yeah. And I think my experience around that is, that I've had multiple partners and I don't think I'll have partners.

in the future in the way that I've had them before, you know, to me, a partner, the only time you should have a partner is if there's a strategic need, like, you know, they bring something to the table that you can't. also knowing that even though they may bring something to the table that you don't and you can't hire it done, if you're going to have a partnership.

Christian Brim (32:30.554)
you need to treat it with the seriousness that you would if you were getting married, because it's that potential impact on your life. And with that, too, like now that you've made it to a marriage, I'm always like saying, you know, I've been married for six years now and I mean, it's not a lot, but it's a lot. And in my humble six years, I always have said to my husband, you know, I look at my other friends and things and I'm like, you know what?

The reason these people are breaking up is because they're not fighting for it. a marriage is fun, but you got to fight to stay in marriage and not fight like physically, right? Like, like fight from your soul. You got to choose that person every single day, despite whatever's going on. I have to choose him. He has to choose me. And that's the same thing that has, like you said, that had to happen in the partnership. And for a long time.

I think if one person is choosing that person, but they're not being chosen back, that becomes a problem. Yes. And, know, you can give and you can give and you can be like, I am here. I am hearing you. I am trying to make this work. But if the other person is not at least reciprocating a little bit of it. my gosh. You might as well like you're in a marriage by yourself. That's not a marriage. No, you're right. In marriage, in partnerships.

Either person can unilaterally decide to not participate. then it doesn't work. mean, so that's a great insight. I've been married 31 years. Wow! That's very impressive question. That's very impressive. What's your secret? I don't look that old. I'll tell you the secret. And my wife said it. So we were at an EO event. It was at a dinner and they had a sexpert talking.

And it was all couples, well mostly couples in the audience. And she was asking, you know, how long we'd been married. And at that point, I think it was 29 or 30, I don't remember. But a sexpert, the speaker asked that question when she found out that we had been married that long. And my wife answered instantaneously, she said, I'm like, yeah, that's right. Because in a marriage,

Christian Brim (34:48.926)
you're going to run into situations where you have been wronged. It may not be big, you know, like infidelity or, you know, whatever, but there's going to be a point where you're righteously angry. You have every reason to be angry. Right. But can you forgive them and love them anyway? And I thought her insight was spot on. I would answer that grace.

is the secret to a long marriage. Yeah, I love that. Okay. See, I was coming in hot by saying fighting, but grace is such a great way to say it. I'm going start saying that. Grace. Grace got me. Well, I mean, you know, it is fighting. You know, no, I mean, four years ago, my wife's mother was diagnosed with cancer and passed away. That was a terrible struggle. then

three months later, my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. And then a month later, her older sister was diagnosed with breast cancer. And her older sister did not survive. She passed the following year. And that time, the last four years, were extremely challenging. and at the same time, we had a pandemic and our youngest son- Sprinkling that in me.

I'm just, where's my girl? Our youngest left home, like went off to university. like it was all of these things happened at one time and it was difficult. And I'm not gonna say that the words divorce didn't come up, but we both wanted and fought for it. Like it would have been easy for either one of us in those situations to have a reason, to have a rationalization to say,

you know, let's move on. We don't need to be doing this. Like, it would be just easier if we just did this and just quit right now. Yeah. It would have been the easier path, but it was not a choice that either one of us wanted. And if either of us had said, no, I don't want to continue, then it wouldn't have worked. So I don't think that fight is the wrong word. I think you do have to fight for it. Yeah. And again,

Christian Brim (37:13.888)
I think if you fight for it, if both of you are fighting for it, then you can make it work in marriage or in business. But if it's only one person, I mean, there's only so far you can get until that one person also is like, mean, what am I doing? What am I doing? Absolutely. Carol, I very much appreciate your time. This has been a very wonderful interview. I feel a certain resonance with you. Similar experiences and I'm glad we had this time. Listeners.

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Thank you for listening to The Chris Project. You are important. Your work is important. Do not give up.